From olaf at interactivelink.nl Sat Feb 1 02:40:28 2003 From: olaf at interactivelink.nl (Olaf Molenveld) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:50 2004 Subject: [NM] cooperation asked References: <008901c2c94a$d4650bb0$0100a8c0@olaf> <3E3AB722.7BF260EF@netzradio.de> Message-ID: <003a01c2c9de$5754e7a0$0100a8c0@olaf> thanx, i will take a look into these..... i am especially interested in techniques that try to model phase-shifts and distortions in certain frequency-ranges, distortion created by the needle-tracing, and resonance/feedback paths in certain freq ranges created by resonance in the cartridge and/or tone-arm...i've plenty of information about these...but some of it is quiet scientific.. Olaf ----- Original Message ----- From: chris To: Olaf Molenveld ; Nord Modular Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 6:49 PM Subject: Re: [NM] cooperation asked > Has been done by ? > > Cheers, > Chris > > Olaf Molenveld wrote: > > > > Hello people, > > > > i am looking for someone to cooperate on a "vinyl emulation" patch for the > > nord modular. I have a lot of information and ideas, collected from the > > internet, and from my own experiments. Now i want to use this to create a > > patch that can be used to recreate the vinyl characteristics of sound on an > > incoming audio signal in the NM. I am afraid i don't have enough DSP and > > audio experience to fully recreate my ideas and info in the NM, so it would > > be very nice to hook up with someone who does and/or i can discuss ideas > > about this with....so if anyone's interested in this email me privately at > > olaf@expansions.nl > > > > Thanx, Olaf > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nord-Modular mailing list > > Nord-Modular@code404.com > > http://code404.com/mailman/listinfo/nord-modular > > _______________________________________________ > > Patches sent to the Nord-Modular mailing list > > may not be redistributed without the express > > consent of the author/creator. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > [Header] > Version=Nord Modular patch 3.0 > 0 127 0 127 2 0 0 1 600 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 > [/Header] > [ModuleDump] > 1 > 1 4 0 28 > 2 40 0 17 > 3 32 0 21 > 4 68 0 7 > 5 25 1 7 > 6 69 0 10 > 7 84 0 14 > 8 91 1 14 > 10 50 1 29 > 11 37 1 12 > 12 91 2 13 > 13 44 1 27 > 14 19 1 25 > 15 31 2 20 > 16 54 2 22 > 17 52 2 24 > 18 38 2 11 > 19 91 3 10 > 20 37 2 9 > 21 2 0 0 > 22 62 0 3 > 23 18 1 0 > [/ModuleDump] > [ModuleDump] > 0 > [/ModuleDump] > [CurrentNoteDump] > 64 0 0 64 0 0 > [/CurrentNoteDump] > [CableDump] > 1 > 2 6 0 1 7 0 0 > 2 6 0 1 11 0 0 > 2 6 0 1 20 0 0 > 0 21 1 1 23 1 0 > 0 21 0 1 23 0 0 > 0 23 0 1 22 0 0 > 0 22 0 1 2 3 0 > 2 20 0 1 18 0 0 > 1 19 0 1 14 2 0 > 2 12 2 1 19 1 0 > 0 17 1 1 2 2 0 > 2 8 2 1 12 1 0 > 1 12 0 1 14 1 0 > 0 15 0 1 16 0 0 > 2 18 0 1 17 0 0 > 0 16 0 1 17 1 0 > 0 10 1 1 13 1 0 > 0 13 0 0 13 1 0 > 0 13 0 1 2 1 0 > 0 14 0 1 10 0 0 > 1 8 0 1 14 0 0 > 2 11 0 1 8 1 0 > 1 7 0 1 2 0 0 > 2 4 1 1 6 0 0 > 0 2 0 1 3 0 0 > 0 3 0 1 1 1 0 > 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 > 1 5 0 1 8 0 0 > 1 12 0 0 8 0 0 > 1 19 0 0 12 0 0 > [/CableDump] > [CableDump] > 0 > [/CableDump] > [ParameterDump] > 1 > 1 4 3 0 0 0 > 2 40 9 50 76 16 65 100 100 100 100 1 > 3 32 15 0 0 87 127 120 91 90 117 96 122 127 96 0 0 0 > 4 68 2 27 1 > 5 25 8 99 2 64 0 0 0 0 64 > 6 69 1 3 > 7 84 3 0 5 0 > 8 91 19 42 98 32 47 124 109 0 127 88 25 62 105 106 44 126 98 15 0 0 > 10 50 3 96 14 0 > 11 37 1 51 > 12 91 19 31 107 34 30 55 46 120 102 111 107 75 25 92 108 100 54 15 0 0 > 13 44 1 0 > 14 19 3 127 126 127 > 15 31 1 69 > 16 54 1 0 > 17 52 11 89 56 76 0 56 97 74 97 56 3 2 > 18 38 1 73 > 19 91 19 25 107 2 61 85 29 26 91 11 18 37 107 124 68 67 34 15 0 0 > 20 37 1 83 > 22 62 2 0 27 > 23 18 2 0 64 > [/ParameterDump] > [ParameterDump] > 0 > [/ParameterDump] > [KnobMapDump] > 1 1 0 17 > 1 2 0 2 > 1 2 1 5 > 1 2 2 8 > 1 2 3 11 > [/KnobMapDump] > [CustomDump] > 1 > 10 1 0 > [/CustomDump] > [CustomDump] > 0 > [/CustomDump] > [NameDump] > 1 > 1 K. v.d. Maarel > 2 Mixer1 > 3 Filter Bank1 > 4 TurnTable > 5 LFOB1 > 6 ClkDiv1 > 7 Needle > 8 CtrlSeq1 > 10 FilterC1 > 11 LogicDelay1 > 12 CtrlSeq1 > 13 GainControl1 > 14 Mixer2 > 15 Noise1 > 16 Quantizer1 > 17 Multi-Env1 > 18 Pulse1 > 19 CtrlSeq1 > 20 LogicDelay1 > 21 AudioIn1 > 22 Overdrive1 > 23 X-Fade1 > [/NameDump] > [NameDump] > 0 > [/NameDump] > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > [Header] > Version=Nord Modular patch 3.0 > 0 127 0 127 1 0 0 1 4000 2 1 0 1 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 > [/Header] > [ModuleDump] > 1 > 3 4 1 40 > 4 103 2 40 > 5 103 0 40 > 6 84 1 6 > 7 103 2 36 > 8 103 0 36 > 11 1 1 12 > 13 84 1 16 > 14 2 1 0 > 16 51 2 12 > 17 51 0 12 > 18 51 0 4 > 19 51 2 4 > 34 18 0 32 > 35 18 2 32 > 36 43 1 34 > 37 43 1 10 > 38 43 1 20 > 39 21 1 24 > [/ModuleDump] > [ModuleDump] > 0 > [/ModuleDump] > [CurrentNoteDump] > 64 0 0 52 29 1 > [/CurrentNoteDump] > [CableDump] > 1 > 0 16 0 1 39 1 0 > 0 17 0 1 39 0 0 > 0 39 1 1 35 1 0 > 1 36 0 1 35 2 0 > 1 36 0 1 34 2 0 > 0 39 0 1 34 1 0 > 0 14 1 1 35 0 0 > 0 14 1 1 19 2 0 > 1 6 0 1 19 3 0 > 1 6 0 1 18 3 0 > 0 14 0 1 34 0 0 > 0 14 0 1 18 2 0 > 1 37 0 1 19 1 0 > 1 37 0 1 18 1 0 > 0 18 0 1 17 2 0 > 1 13 0 1 17 3 0 > 1 13 0 1 16 3 0 > 0 19 0 1 16 2 0 > 1 38 0 1 17 1 0 > 1 38 0 1 16 1 0 > 0 34 0 1 8 0 0 > 0 35 0 1 7 0 0 > 2 11 1 1 13 0 0 > 2 11 1 1 6 0 0 > 0 8 0 1 5 0 0 > 0 7 0 1 4 0 0 > 0 4 0 1 3 1 0 > 0 5 0 1 3 0 0 > [/CableDump] > [CableDump] > 0 > [/CableDump] > [ParameterDump] > 1 > 3 4 3 127 0 0 > 4 103 5 99 71 45 0 127 > 5 103 5 99 70 42 0 127 > 6 84 3 0 72 0 > 7 103 5 60 76 64 0 127 > 8 103 5 60 75 64 0 127 > 13 84 3 0 74 0 > 16 51 10 0 0 0 0 0 127 0 1 0 0 > 17 51 10 0 0 0 0 0 127 0 1 0 0 > 18 51 10 2 0 0 0 0 127 0 1 0 0 > 19 51 10 2 0 0 0 0 127 0 1 0 0 > 34 18 2 127 64 > 35 18 2 127 64 > 36 43 2 127 0 > 37 43 2 42 1 > 38 43 2 15 1 > 39 21 9 0 33 10 0 36 24 0 0 0 > [/ParameterDump] > [ParameterDump] > 0 > [/ParameterDump] > [MorphMapDump] > 61 0 56 94 > 1 16 3 3 127 1 16 8 0 127 1 17 3 3 127 1 17 8 0 127 1 18 3 2 127 1 18 8 1 127 1 19 3 2 127 1 19 8 1 127 > [/MorphMapDump] > [KnobMapDump] > 1 3 0 0 > 1 6 0 1 > 1 6 1 4 > 1 13 0 7 > 1 13 1 10 > 1 36 0 17 > 1 37 0 8 > 1 38 0 11 > 1 39 2 13 > 1 39 3 14 > 2 1 0 3 > 2 1 1 6 > 2 1 2 2 > 2 1 3 5 > [/KnobMapDump] > [CustomDump] > 0 > [/CustomDump] > [CustomDump] > 1 > 16 1 0 > 17 1 0 > 18 1 0 > 19 1 0 > [/CustomDump] > [NameDump] > 1 > 3 Main Outs > 4 EqLoMid R > 5 EqLoMid L > 6 Lo-Env > 7 EqHiMid R > 8 EqHiMid L > 11 Keyboard > 13 Hi-Env > 14 Audio Input > 16 Hi - Right > 17 Hi - Left > 18 Lo - Left > 19 Lo - Right > 34 FX/Orig Mix L > 35 FX/Orig Mix R > 36 Original/FX Mix > 37 Warm > 38 Tinny > 39 Compressor1 > [/NameDump] > [NameDump] > 0 > [/NameDump] > From nord_modular_conf at mkv.mh.se Sat Feb 1 03:53:14 2003 From: nord_modular_conf at mkv.mh.se (Nord_Modular_Conf) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] Soundscape in G Message-ID: Great! I used this patch in slot D. //Per Mattsson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: soft glassvibra.pch Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2090 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.code404.com/pipermail/nord-modular/attachments/20030201/363ce0bc/softglassvibra.obj From richard at chorlton.com Sat Feb 1 06:51:09 2003 From: richard at chorlton.com (Richard) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] Soundscape in G References: Message-ID: <002201c2ca01$5cfda520$7659063e@richardw98tcli> I'm liking this patch a lot too Per! I'd like to set it up as a very slow and not to predictable noodle triggering different pitches - anyone got any advice as to how I should trigger it? Its a new area to me so I need to to be simple! Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nord_Modular_Conf" To: Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [NM] Soundscape in G > Great! > > I used this patch in slot D. > > //Per Mattsson > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > Nord-Modular mailing list > Nord-Modular@code404.com > http://code404.com/mailman/listinfo/nord-modular > _______________________________________________ > Patches sent to the Nord-Modular mailing list > may not be redistributed without the express > consent of the author/creator. > From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Sat Feb 1 06:59:41 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] TCP: Choice of scripting language In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030130173515.00b94020@63.202.202.154> References: <000301c2b88c$5f4e62a0$9002a8c0@in.nuxeo.com> <11448703752.20030104104252@yefrewenchi.com> <003701c2b4a3$9087e810$3fcc96c1@Xochiquetzal> <1573294136.20030105062012@yefrewenchi.com> <018b01c2b57a$b5e81a80$0b01a8c0@INLINE1> <001801c2b588$775739a0$7c53c950@TWISTIE> <15242019611.20030106065532@yefrewenchi.com> <000301c2b88c$5f4e62a0$9002a8c0@in.nuxeo.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20030130173515.00b94020@63.202.202.154> Message-ID: <194174301993.20030201065941@yefrewenchi.com> On 1/30/2003 Ron Stephens wrote: > Mind sharing with us which tool that is? > THANKS! Adobe GoLive 6 http://www.adobe.com/products/golive/main.html (A pupil of mine used to work there so I got it for $25!!!) -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From alex.bennett at attbi.com Sat Feb 1 09:59:48 2003 From: alex.bennett at attbi.com (Alex Bennett) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] top 3 fav film scores References: <10f.1dcd633f.2b6c575e@aol.com> Message-ID: <004001c2ca1b$b6851d20$a90dec0c@attbi.com> 2001: A Space Odyssey. The sound is often more important than the picture in that movie, psychologically. From kadrock at pipeline.com Sat Feb 1 10:14:47 2003 From: kadrock at pipeline.com (Atom) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] sort of (OT) sample CD/pad sound In-Reply-To: <188158198938.20030129105247@yefrewenchi.com> References: <001501c2c636$66787860$640314cf@euphonix.com> <188158198938.20030129105247@yefrewenchi.com> Message-ID: Kofi- that looks like it! Thanks!!!! BTW... I tried to isolate the pad... used PEAK on the mac. basically I looped it, found good cross points. And then I tried a DSP function called "convolver" ... I forget what it means to "convolve" something but that somehow removed most of the noise! What the?! It needs some EQ but it's usable (at least in my semi-lo-fi murky world of music making). Huh. cheers, Atom At 10:52 AM -0800 1/29/03, Friday's Child wrote: >On 1/27/2003 Atom Atom wrote: > >> hey there NM people, >Hi > >> I don't usually buy sample CDs, or never actually... but I'm dying >> for this pad sound. I found this mp3 demo a while back, I think the >> CD is called Twisted FX >Would this by any chance be it? >http://www.midi-classics.com/f/f16274.htm > >-- > >With every good wish, >K(ofi) B(usia) -- _______________________________________________________ .MELANGE.electronic.music. http://www.melange.org .media/scoring/art/design. "Talking about art is like dancing about architecture." - David Bowie _______________________________________________________ From ico at pruts.nl Sat Feb 1 13:08:48 2003 From: ico at pruts.nl (Ico Doornekamp) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] Looking for micro in NL Message-ID: <20030201210848.GA2245@pruts.nl> Hi all, Due to a lack of space on my desk I'm looking for a second hand micromodular in the Netherlands. Does anybody know a cheap one for sale, or anybody selling one him(her)self ? From Terryfunken at aol.com Sun Feb 2 03:00:55 2003 From: Terryfunken at aol.com (Terryfunken@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] top 3 fav film scores Message-ID: <147.95ad943.2b6e5467@aol.com> In a message dated 1/2/03 6:02:15 pm, alex.bennett@attbi.com writes: >2001: A Space Odyssey. The sound is often more important than the picture > >in that movie, psychologically. > > Alex, I agree with you, but the soundtrack for 2001 (like many of Kubrick's flicks) wasn't specifically written for that film, so imo in this case the film is more important than the soundtrack- but in Kubrick's case, it's the only time i've ever listened to Johan Strauss where the music of Strauss made perfect sense!! Also I think Lygetti's compositions would have been less well known if it wasn't for this film. I think 2001 is the only space film I have seen where there is acknowledgement that in space (in a vacuum) you can't hear anything. I think there is a greater impact in the fact that when they are floating in nothingness, you don't hear a single noise apart from the sound of breathing- I think that this-imo- is even more disturbing psychologically than the spooky tones of Lygetti, and the fact that it's the only time you can sit with 100 or so people in a cinema- and not hear a single noise from the audience. I always found this extremely disturbing!. (Incidently, 2001 is the code on our house security alarm!!- hmmm, if I get done over now, I can point my finger at code404!!!! heh;) While we are on the subject of Strauss'es, have you ever heard '4 last songs' by Richard Strauss?- I think this is proof of the power of 'classical' music (although it's not classical, because of the time it was written- but then i'm just being a dumb nerdy nit-picker- sorry! hehehe!|;) Tom :-) From robnet at wxs.nl Sun Feb 2 09:09:31 2003 From: robnet at wxs.nl (Robert van der Kamp) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] Ftp archive password? Message-ID: <200302021809.31489.robnet@wxs.nl> Hoi, ik probeer de zip versies van de nieuwe workshops te downloaden van de ftp archive. Onder linux gaat het best, maar onder windows word ik om een password gevraagd die ik niet kan verzinnen. Wat moet ik hier intikken? Bedankt, Robert From robnet at wxs.nl Sun Feb 2 09:18:19 2003 From: robnet at wxs.nl (Robert van der Kamp) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] Ftp archive password? In-Reply-To: <200302021809.31489.robnet@wxs.nl> References: <200302021809.31489.robnet@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <200302021818.19709.robnet@wxs.nl> Sorry, I wasn't thinking! English!! I can't find the password for the FTP archive when trying to download the zipped versions of the workshops. Can anyone help me? Thanks, Robert From Terryfunken at aol.com Sun Feb 2 09:30:51 2003 From: Terryfunken at aol.com (Terryfunken@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead? Message-ID: <1e3.e7fc06.2b6eafcb@aol.com> There was quite an interesting piece in yesterday's "Guardian" newspaper which I think some people might find interesting (especially all you pianist's out there! http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,886739,00.html if you can't find the link, the try; www.guardian.co.uk/arts then, type in the search box; "Composer reinvents the Piano" Debussy anyone? Tom :-) From ico at pruts.nl Sun Feb 2 09:59:55 2003 From: ico at pruts.nl (Ico Doornekamp) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] Ftp archive password? In-Reply-To: <200302021818.19709.robnet@wxs.nl> References: <200302021809.31489.robnet@wxs.nl> <200302021818.19709.robnet@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <20030202175955.GB2245@pruts.nl> > I can't find the password for the FTP archive when trying to > download the zipped versions of the workshops. If you are referring to the Nordsynth.zevv.nl site, that's not using FTP but plain HTTP. Just go to http://nordsynth.zevv.nl If you refer to the synthcom archive, I don't know... From dpa_dvsn at slami.ru Sun Feb 2 05:52:00 2003 From: dpa_dvsn at slami.ru (Slami DPA division) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] Fretless bass guitar patch wanted Message-ID: <004901c2cac2$42a0dd20$1200a8c0@aha.ru> Hi, everybody on NM-list! There were some fretless bass guitar (Karplus-strong type or so) model patches on list some time ago, can you attach some now, please? best vishes! Phil mix2r@ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.code404.com/pipermail/nord-modular/attachments/20030202/7cd72fe7/attachment.htm From valis at ucla.edu Sun Feb 2 11:05:15 2003 From: valis at ucla.edu (Valis Vitalis) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] Ftp archive password? References: <200302021809.31489.robnet@wxs.nl> <200302021818.19709.robnet@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <3E3D6BEB.8040907@ucla.edu> I was there the other day and i believe I used Modular as the username and Nord as the password and got in. vV Robert van der Kamp wrote: >Sorry, I wasn't thinking! English!! > >I can't find the password for the FTP archive when trying to >download the zipped versions of the workshops. > >Can anyone help me? > >Thanks, >Robert >_______________________________________________ >Nord-Modular mailing list >Nord-Modular@code404.com >http://code404.com/mailman/listinfo/nord-modular >_______________________________________________ >Patches sent to the Nord-Modular mailing list >may not be redistributed without the express >consent of the author/creator. > > > From brendanheading at clara.co.uk Sun Feb 2 11:39:05 2003 From: brendanheading at clara.co.uk (Brendan Heading) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:52 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead? In-Reply-To: <1e3.e7fc06.2b6eafcb@aol.com> References: <1e3.e7fc06.2b6eafcb@aol.com> Message-ID: In message <1e3.e7fc06.2b6eafcb@aol.com>, Terryfunken@aol.com writes >There was quite an interesting piece in yesterday's "Guardian" newspaper >which I think some people might find interesting (especially all you >pianist's out there! What's this got to do with the synthesizer being dead ? That's hyperbole. Clearly the synthesizer exists for reasons other than microtones and alternative tuning. Heck, the vast majority of synthesizers out there (including our beloved Nord) do not allow you to use alternative tuning tables. -- Brendan Heading, Belfast, Northern Ireland Caill do chl? agus faigh ar ais ?, agus n? h? an rud c?anna ?. From rhordijk at xs4all.nl Sun Feb 2 13:06:15 2003 From: rhordijk at xs4all.nl (Rob Hordijk) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] Sound of the memorymoog Message-ID: Borrowed a Memorymoog from a friend for the weekend. The typical thing about it is that the filter tends to give all sounds a little a reverberated character, quite typical for the ladderfilter. Most other filters give some sort of 'right in your face' effect, but this synth is definitely special here. Bad thing is that it makes the sounds sounding a bit outdated, fast sequencing memorymoog sounds doesn't seem to work very well, but the padsounds are beautiful. So I made a patch trying to capture a bit of the reverberated character. With some delay line tricks it sounds even deeper. Terrible thing about digital oscillators is that unisono in the higher registers is sounding so awful, I mean the high buzzy sound killing the spatial effect of three unisono saws, so there is some trick that tunes the oscs closer to each other when playing higher notes. Does seem to improve things quite a lot. Still it is all very subtle. Well, let me know what you think. Have fun, Rob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MemoryOfMoog.pch Type: application/octet-stream Size: 3422 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.code404.com/pipermail/nord-modular/attachments/20030202/415be20a/MemoryOfMoog.obj From robnet at wxs.nl Sun Feb 2 15:00:04 2003 From: robnet at wxs.nl (Robert van der Kamp) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] Ftp archive password? In-Reply-To: <3E3D6BEB.8040907@ucla.edu> References: <200302021809.31489.robnet@wxs.nl> <200302021818.19709.robnet@wxs.nl> <3E3D6BEB.8040907@ucla.edu> Message-ID: <200302030000.04767.robnet@wxs.nl> On Sunday 02 February 2003 20:05, Valis Vitalis wrote: > I was there the other day and i believe I used Modular as > the username and Nord as the password and got in. Thanks, I'll give it a try. - Robert From Terryfunken at aol.com Sun Feb 2 15:58:21 2003 From: Terryfunken at aol.com (Terryfunken@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead? Message-ID: <90.31db3493.2b6f0a9d@aol.com> In a message dated 2/2/03 7:41:09 pm, brendanheading@clara.co.uk writes: >What's this got to do with the synthesizer being dead ? That's > >hyperbole. Clearly the synthesizer exists for reasons other than > >microtones and alternative tuning. Heck, the vast majority of > >synthesizers out there (including our beloved Nord) do not allow you to > > >use alternative tuning tables. Calm down ;) Don't bite my head off!!- It was meant as a tounge in cheek joke :) My point was that the Piano keyboard created the grounds for the interface used on the majority of synthesizers. Synthesizers were a very important part of the development of the on going progression of keyboard instruments, and if you read the text, it points out that this scale of tuning of the piano could only heard principly by using a synthesizer (or by using eastern instruments etc.) Anyway this is pointless, i've been up all night and I didn't want to start a stupid flame war over something that is (imo) very innovative. Tom :-) From ianhattwick at attbi.com Sun Feb 2 16:19:06 2003 From: ianhattwick at attbi.com (Ian Hattwick) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead? In-Reply-To: <1e3.e7fc06.2b6eafcb@aol.com> Message-ID: <1B3269A0-370D-11D7-994B-00039307260A@attbi.com> From the article: 'The question of how the device works remains a closely guarded secret at the moment. World music specialist Michael Church said yesterday: "Until we know precisely how the pianist is altering the length or tension of the strings it's hard to say anything meaningful. But if he really is going to 'bend' notes in an eastern manner, then it's a genuine breakthrough." ' Hard to believe they can write a whole article about an invention, and never mention how the device works!! Sounds like Segway style hype to me. 'The biggest challenge will be to convert more conservative musicians to the new outlook. "People set in their ways will be freaked out by this," Mr Smith said. Harriet Smith of the classical Music magazine is among the doubters. "The question it immediately begs is why? You obviously don't need all these extra tones to play the majority of the repertoire that is out there. And you wouldn't really want it to play world music on the piano because that's not really what the piano is about." ' Over christmas I heard a wendy carlos album she made in the 80s that used digital modeling and non-standard tunings throughout the whole thing. her physical modeling concept was cool- she combined different charicteristcs of modeling freely, e.g. overblowing piano strings, or bowing trumpet notes. The unequal tuning concept was definitely hard to get used to, but I suppose at some point it will become common. Already you can get guitar bridges that can retune your guitar at the push of a button, to any tuning you want. As the technology to adapt traditional instruments to unequal tunings becomes more common, I bet we will see more music using it. Cool concept for an article, but wish it had more info!! Ian On Sunday, February 2, 2003, at 09:30 AM, Terryfunken@aol.com wrote: > There was quite an interesting piece in yesterday's "Guardian" newspaper > which I think some people might find interesting (especially all you > pianist's out there! > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,886739,00.html > > if you can't find the link, the try; > > www.guardian.co.uk/arts > > then, type in the search box; "Composer reinvents the Piano" > > Debussy anyone? > > Tom :-) > _______________________________________________ > Nord-Modular mailing list > Nord-Modular@code404.com > http://code404.com/mailman/listinfo/nord-modular > _______________________________________________ > Patches sent to the Nord-Modular mailing list > may not be redistributed without the express > consent of the author/creator. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2661 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.code404.com/pipermail/nord-modular/attachments/20030202/416dc7aa/attachment.bin From b.hawk at shaw.ca Sun Feb 2 16:28:29 2003 From: b.hawk at shaw.ca (Pedro Monkeyfinger) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] editor in classic under 10.2 stable? Message-ID: hey hey just got the editor running in classic under 10.2, but it s not stable at all. has anyone got it running well? i m using a tibook800 and a usb midisport 2x2 tia BRAD From chsinger at localnet.com Sun Feb 2 15:57:25 2003 From: chsinger at localnet.com (Chet Singer) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] Fretless bass guitar patch wanted References: <004901c2cac2$42a0dd20$1200a8c0@aha.ru> Message-ID: <002001c2cb16$d847ac10$199428cf@207d511> Phil, I posted a KS bass guitar a while ago, called csBassGuitar. I'm not sure how well it was tuned, though. I'll take a look at improving it and re-posting it tomorrow. Chet ----- Original Message ----- From: Slami DPA division To: Nord Modular Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 8:52 AM Subject: [NM] Fretless bass guitar patch wanted Hi, everybody on NM-list! There were some fretless bass guitar (Karplus-strong type or so) model patches on list some time ago, can you attach some now, please? best vishes! Phil mix2r@ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Nord-Modular mailing list Nord-Modular@code404.com http://code404.com/mailman/listinfo/nord-modular _______________________________________________ Patches sent to the Nord-Modular mailing list may not be redistributed without the express consent of the author/creator. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.code404.com/pipermail/nord-modular/attachments/20030202/6eb262ab/attachment.htm From Terryfunken at aol.com Mon Feb 3 01:20:17 2003 From: Terryfunken at aol.com (Terryfunken@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead? Message-ID: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com> In a message dated 3/2/03 12:19:56 am, ianhattwick@attbi.com writes: >Hard to believe they can write a whole article about an invention, and > >never mention how the device works!! Sounds like Segway style hype to me. > I think it's because the inventor is applying for an international patent- which is fair enough :) Harriet Smith of the classical Music magazine is among the doubters. "The question it immediately begs is why? You obviously don't need all these extra tones to play the majority of the repertoire that is out there. And you wouldn't really want it to play world music on the piano because that's not really what the piano is about." ' Isn't this the same attitude people had when the convection oven came out? ;) I think to say "this is not what the piano is really about" would be denying countless composers (in particular, John Cage, Stephen Scott etc.) that their work had any point. (sorry I couldn't think of an appropriate adjective). Even Claude Debussy predicted and dreamt of a machine which would have a keyboard interface yet the machine would create sounds beyond our wildest dreams (the synthesizer?)- I would have been really impressed if this new piano could have been exploited by Debussy. Tom :-) From Terryfunken at aol.com Mon Feb 3 01:30:10 2003 From: Terryfunken at aol.com (Terryfunken@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] editor in classic under 10.2 stable? Message-ID: In a message dated 3/2/03 12:27:58 am, b.hawk@shaw.ca writes: >just got the editor running in classic under 10.2, but it s not >stable at all. has anyone got it running well? i m using a >tibook800 and a usb midisport 2x2 I suppose I really shouldn't be answering this (because I'm not running 10.2 yet- but I think I've got some useful info to share) for a start, what editor are you using? and I've had countless problems with the Midisport 2x2 (not even cash converters would give me a fiver for it!). I'm using an Emagic mt4 now- which is stable as a rock, but you MUST disable the OMSmididriver extention- as I found this interferes with the mt4 . Perhaps it's the same with the 2x2?? good luck! Tom :-) From steve.scrambled at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 3 05:17:10 2003 From: steve.scrambled at ntlworld.com (steve.scrambled) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com> Message-ID: <005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> > Harriet Smith of the classical Music magazine is among > the doubters. "The question it immediately begs is why? You obviously > don't need all these extra tones to play the majority of the repertoire > that is out there. And you wouldn't really want it to play world music > on the piano because that's not really what the piano is about." ' > > Isn't this the same attitude people had when the convection oven came out? ;) > I think to say "this is not what the piano is really about" would be denying > countless composers (in particular, John Cage, Stephen Scott etc.) that their > work had any point. How does harmony operate in a microtonal situation, though? I guess the point of a piano is that it's a massively polyphonic instrument and thus suited to exploiting the possibilities of harmony (or disharmony for that matter). Some non-western music seems to concentrate upon melodic complexity using single monophonic parts rather than on harmonic relationships, whereas other kinds (like Indian music, I believe) have very complex harmonic content. I suppose the extent to which it would make sense to perform existing pieces on this new-fangled piano would depend upon the extent to which harmony is used by the piece. Didn't Terry Riley do some microtonal piano stuff? I think I have an ancient SOS article about it somewhere. Does anyone here make microtonal stuff or know about how it relates to harmony? I think Kofi might be due to drop another information payload quite soon... Nice article, Tom. Steve (Rowboffin) From brendanheading at clara.co.uk Mon Feb 3 05:24:34 2003 From: brendanheading at clara.co.uk (Brendan Heading) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead? Message-ID: > Anyway this is pointless, i've been up all night and I didn't want to start a > stupid flame war over something that is (imo) very innovative. It's not a flame; I was merely disagreeing. I just thought it was a bit off the mark to say that the article suggested the death of the synthesizer. Obviously there is much more to a synthesizer than the device we use to control it. It's primary function is synthesis. Alternative tuning and so on is by no means a new idea either. Wendy Carlos has been working in that area for quite some time, and she released an extensive work based on her research in 1986 ("Beauty in the Beast"). On her website somewhere there's a design suggestion for a keyboard capable of other scales that she came up with around the same time. -- From brendanheading at clara.co.uk Mon Feb 3 05:27:20 2003 From: brendanheading at clara.co.uk (Brendan Heading) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead? Message-ID: > Isn't this the same attitude people had when the convection oven came out? ;) > I think to say "this is not what the piano is really about" would be denying > countless composers (in particular, John Cage, Stephen Scott etc.) that their > work had any point. On that we agree. It astounds me that someone who considers him/herself a music expert or critic is arrogant enough to believe that there is no application for an alternative piano keyboard other than playing music that has already been composed - although arrogance is certainly nothing new for some people in this field. Perhaps he/she has already dismissed the prospect of *new* music even being worth the listening effort. -- Brendan -- From modular at ursliska.de Mon Feb 3 06:26:10 2003 From: modular at ursliska.de (Urs Liska) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com> <005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> Message-ID: <004901c2cb90$3ff141e0$ca86e23e@schweizk> There are countless efforts in "western contemporary classical music" dealing with microtonality, and most of them are in some way or the other concerned with harmony. Obviously the piano as it is doesn't stand in the center of this but it was also used, mainly with the help of flageolets and their detuning against the welltempered scale. Other instruments like strings or voices are better suited for this purpose. A very prominent example is the use of multiphonics on wind instruments. Especially concerning the oboe this is thoroughly researched in technical and harmonical terms by a book by Peter Veale and Claus-Steffen Mahnkopf. One originally french "school" of contemporary music is called "spectralism" and tries to take the spectral nature of sounds as the basis for composition. This direction carries microtonality and harmony in its center. I don't have useful examples of compositions/composers out of my head (beside the "old" one of Iwan Wyschnegradsky's 16th note piano from the first third of the 20th century) but I can assure you most of the "contemporary composers" who use microtonality use it in context of harmony. This is because if you use pitch as a criterium for composition you are always in a tension between harmony and counterpoint. This hasn't changed much for the last 1000 years (except for the freedom not to use pitches). BTW: I once realized a composition by a young german composer, Johannes Menke, that he wrote for a singer and my NM (phew, we're on topic again), which made extensive use of harmonic microtonality (out of this work I wrote a little text on equidistant scales that is also on the "interesting threads" page [sorry Wout: still not in English]). Johannes Menke also wrote several texts on the subject and held a speech at a symposium last september, but unfortunately none of them is published yet. Hope this was of any interest to you Regards Urs ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve.scrambled" To: "Nord Modular" Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [NM] microtonality: piano > > Harriet Smith of the classical Music magazine is among > > the doubters. "The question it immediately begs is why? You obviously > > don't need all these extra tones to play the majority of the repertoire > > that is out there. And you wouldn't really want it to play world music > > on the piano because that's not really what the piano is about." ' > > > > Isn't this the same attitude people had when the convection oven came out? > ;) > > I think to say "this is not what the piano is really about" would be > denying > > countless composers (in particular, John Cage, Stephen Scott etc.) that > their > > work had any point. > > How does harmony operate in a microtonal situation, though? I guess the > point of a piano is that it's a massively polyphonic instrument and thus > suited to exploiting the possibilities of harmony (or disharmony for that > matter). Some non-western music seems to concentrate upon melodic complexity > using single monophonic parts rather than on harmonic relationships, whereas > other kinds (like Indian music, I believe) have very complex harmonic > content. I suppose the extent to which it would make sense to perform > existing pieces on this new-fangled piano would depend upon the extent to > which harmony is used by the piece. > > Didn't Terry Riley do some microtonal piano stuff? I think I have an ancient > SOS article about it somewhere. > > Does anyone here make microtonal stuff or know about how it relates to > harmony? I think Kofi might be due to drop another information payload quite > soon... > > Nice article, Tom. > > Steve (Rowboffin) > > _______________________________________________ > Nord-Modular mailing list > Nord-Modular@code404.com > http://code404.com/mailman/listinfo/nord-modular > _______________________________________________ > Patches sent to the Nord-Modular mailing list > may not be redistributed without the express > consent of the author/creator. From pvigo at swin.edu.au Mon Feb 3 06:39:16 2003 From: pvigo at swin.edu.au (Paul Vigo) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:53 2004 Subject: [NM] Q or NL III In-Reply-To: <1043925085029635@caramail.com> Message-ID: If you're selling a microwave xt I'd replace it with a Q. The waldorf sound and synthesis engine is very distinctive and will give you sounds that the nl3 just wont. The q is at its heart a particularly digital beast. But its also a waldorf which means it is very difficult to get to know. waldorf synths are deep and strange. The NL3 can sound very different to the 2, but a lot of the innovations are evolutionary and a lot of the extra expense has gone into the user interface. If you didn't already have a NL2 i'd highly recommend a nl3, but why have two closely related synths when you could have two very different beasts? Paul Vigo Teacher, Swinburne University. [LAM300, LSM201] email: pvigo@swin.edu.au - Mobile: 0425 704463 personal email pavig@pobox.com and MSN .net (preffered IM) ICQ: 642304 - AOL: pavigmedia - Yahoo and undernet/irc: pavig -----Original Message----- From: nord-modular-bounces@code404.com [mailto:nord-modular-bounces@code404.com]On Behalf Of zorg zorg Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:11 PM To: nord-modular@code404.com Subject: [NM] Q or NL III Hi there, I'm a more than happy owner of NR II, Nord Modular (despite crashing PC with editor), VIRUS b, M3X and MicroWaveXT, all of them bought second hand (well, not the M3X, wich is a pricey piece of gear and not as reliable as pretended ! Oh no, it's not). I'm considering selling the XT to buy wether a Q rack or a NLIII rack second hand (Any advice ? NLIII is very different from NR2 sound wise ? (I know you can go deeper in terms of programming) Thanx !!! and long life to the mighty modular, V 4 or not ! Of course, I've listened to the online demos - there's no serious synth dealer where I live. It might sounds strange to buy such units without even tweaking them live but I did it to my own surprise, and it worked (anyway, I just had a D50, so it wasn't difficult to be pleased with any of those.) _________________________________________________________ Gagne une PS2 ! Envoie un SMS avec le code PS au 61166 (0,35? Hors co?t du SMS) From pvigo at swin.edu.au Mon Feb 3 07:21:17 2003 From: pvigo at swin.edu.au (Paul Vigo) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> Message-ID: I've experimented quite a bit with microtonality in harmony, but despite trying to wrap my head around the theory it's usually come down to the simplest solution: Lay down your harmonies one voice at a time and ride the pitch bend in the process. A lot of it is trial and error but after a bit you figure out which note has to be just a touch sharp or flat and it becomes second nature. Somehow i've found the ear is a better judge of what locks harmonicly than any of the more logical strategies i've been able to come up with - (and the nord lead 2 has a sweet pitch stick for finessing that kind of thing.) I'm not talking about just temperament either - listen to a bit of well played fretless bass and it's anything but just tempered. If anyone's got any interesting microtonal patches, love to hear them. Paul Vigo Teacher, Swinburne University. [LAM300, LSM201] email: pvigo@swin.edu.au - Mobile: 0425 704463 personal email pavig@pobox.com and MSN .net (preffered IM) ICQ: 642304 - AOL: pavigmedia - Yahoo and undernet/irc: pavig -----Original Message----- From: nord-modular-bounces@code404.com [mailto:nord-modular-bounces@code404.com]On Behalf Of steve.scrambled Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:17 AM To: Nord Modular Subject: Re: [NM] microtonality: piano > Harriet Smith of the classical Music magazine is among > the doubters. "The question it immediately begs is why? You obviously > don't need all these extra tones to play the majority of the repertoire > that is out there. And you wouldn't really want it to play world music > on the piano because that's not really what the piano is about." ' > > Isn't this the same attitude people had when the convection oven came out? ;) > I think to say "this is not what the piano is really about" would be denying > countless composers (in particular, John Cage, Stephen Scott etc.) that their > work had any point. How does harmony operate in a microtonal situation, though? I guess the point of a piano is that it's a massively polyphonic instrument and thus suited to exploiting the possibilities of harmony (or disharmony for that matter). Some non-western music seems to concentrate upon melodic complexity using single monophonic parts rather than on harmonic relationships, whereas other kinds (like Indian music, I believe) have very complex harmonic content. I suppose the extent to which it would make sense to perform existing pieces on this new-fangled piano would depend upon the extent to which harmony is used by the piece. Didn't Terry Riley do some microtonal piano stuff? I think I have an ancient SOS article about it somewhere. Does anyone here make microtonal stuff or know about how it relates to harmony? I think Kofi might be due to drop another information payload quite soon... Nice article, Tom. Steve (Rowboffin) _______________________________________________ Nord-Modular mailing list Nord-Modular@code404.com http://code404.com/mailman/listinfo/nord-modular _______________________________________________ Patches sent to the Nord-Modular mailing list may not be redistributed without the express consent of the author/creator. From theoloniusmonk at hotmail.com Mon Feb 3 07:29:15 2003 From: theoloniusmonk at hotmail.com (Theo.:.) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] editor in classic under 10.2 stable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 2/3/03 4:30 AM, "Terryfunken@aol.com" wrote: > > In a message dated 3/2/03 12:27:58 am, b.hawk@shaw.ca writes: > >> just got the editor running in classic under 10.2, but it s not >> stable at all. has anyone got it running well? i m using a >> tibook800 and a usb midisport 2x2 > > I suppose I really shouldn't be answering this (because I'm not running 10.2 > yet- but I think I've got some useful info to share) > > for a start, what editor are you using? and I've had countless problems with > the Midisport 2x2 (not even cash converters would give me a fiver for it!). > I'm using an Emagic mt4 now- which is stable as a rock, but you MUST disable > the OMSmididriver extention- as I found this interferes with the mt4 . > Perhaps it's the same with the 2x2?? > > good luck! > > Tom :-) > _______________________________________________ > Nord-Modular mailing list > Nord-Modular@code404.com > http://code404.com/mailman/listinfo/nord-modular > _______________________________________________ > Patches sent to the Nord-Modular mailing list > may not be redistributed without the express > consent of the author/creator. > I have the same set up Powerbook 867 2x2 and 10.2 IT works great! Just make sure you have 10.2.3 (which has oms support) and OMS installed on your os 9 sysytem folder. It is better to set it up in 9 rather than in classic. Create a studio set up etc. Other than that I can't offer any other suggestions. Theo From Terryfunken at aol.com Mon Feb 3 07:48:25 2003 From: Terryfunken at aol.com (Terryfunken@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead/ nord noodling Message-ID: <146.9723dea.2b6fe949@aol.com> In a message dated 3/2/03 1:25:23 pm, brendanheading@clara.co.uk writes: >I just thought it was a bit >off the mark to say that the article suggested the death of the >synthesizer. Come on Brendan, Life's too short!!! ;) I thought it was an interesting article that I wanted to share with my other collegues on the list:) I never meant to upset anyone. On a different note (pardon me:), I've finally met up with another Nord Noodler last Saturday- Richard@Chorlton to be precise (hiya Richard!), Played a gig in Manchester- it had the best audience EVER! Perhaps I should meet with some more of you wonderful people?- I'd very much like to meet everyone from the US, NL, De, Fr, Se, etc etc etc!! Tom :-) From Terryfunken at aol.com Mon Feb 3 07:56:46 2003 From: Terryfunken at aol.com (Terryfunken@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] editor in classic under 10.2 stable? Message-ID: <5f.345cf629.2b6feb3e@aol.com> In a message dated 3/2/03 3:29:34 pm, theoloniusmonk@hotmail.com writes: >It is better to set it up in 9 rather than in >classic. Hi Theo! What do you mean by this exactly?- I've just bought a TiPB500, and am looking forward to using OSX- So perhaps it'll be me chewing my nails, asking all kinds of silly questions, next on the list? heh;) Incidently, there is a really good article on xlr8yourmac.com about why the Ti 400 and 500 PB's are twice as fast as the 550 and 667 models- when running audio applications. It could save some people who are looking to buy a PB Mac, some money?! (something to do- apparently- with greater memory bandwidth on the older chips). Tom :-) From theoloniusmonk at hotmail.com Mon Feb 3 09:14:59 2003 From: theoloniusmonk at hotmail.com (Theo.:.) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] editor in classic under 10.2 stable? In-Reply-To: <5f.345cf629.2b6feb3e@aol.com> Message-ID: On 2/3/03 10:56 AM, "Terryfunken@aol.com" wrote: > > In a message dated 3/2/03 3:29:34 pm, theoloniusmonk@hotmail.com writes: > >> It is better to set it up in 9 rather than in >> classic. > > Hi Theo! > > What do you mean by this exactly?- I've just bought a TiPB500, and am looking > forward to using OSX- So perhaps it'll be me chewing my nails, asking all > kinds of silly questions, next on the list? heh;) > > Incidently, there is a really good article on xlr8yourmac.com about why the > Ti 400 and 500 PB's are twice as fast as the 550 and 667 models- when running > audio applications. It could save some people who are looking to buy a PB > Mac, some money?! > (something to do- apparently- with greater memory bandwidth on the older > chips). > > Tom :-) > _______________________________________________ Hey Tom Well when I found out you could use the modular editor in 10.2.3 using oms I tried installing OMS (www.m-audio.com under support). I tried installing it in os X under classic. But it wasn't working. SO I booted up into OS 9 using start up disk in system preferences and installed it as you would in 9 with the drivers for the midisport. Once OMS is set up in 9 (has to be in the version of 9 that OS X uses for Classic) and it detects your midi interface etc. Just go back into X and launch the modular editior in classic. Now in the midi setup it should detect your oms midi settings. This will only work in 10.2.3 as it allows you to use OMS for older classic apps. From chsinger at localnet.com Mon Feb 3 10:23:13 2003 From: chsinger at localnet.com (Chet Singer) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] Fretless bass guitar patch wanted References: <004901c2cac2$42a0dd20$1200a8c0@aha.ru> Message-ID: <001801c2cbb1$52226170$0832a141@207d511> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: csBassGuitar2.pch Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2478 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.code404.com/pipermail/nord-modular/attachments/20030203/4a3a01b8/csBassGuitar2.obj From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 11:52:13 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com> <005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> Message-ID: <183364653904.20030203115213@yefrewenchi.com> On 2/3/2003 steve.scrambled steve.scrambled wrote: > How does harmony operate in a microtonal situation, though? Why _should_ it operate in a microtonal situation? A very broad spectrum of the music in the world really doesn't bother with it that much. > I guess the > point of a piano is that it's a massively polyphonic instrument and thus > suited to exploiting the possibilities of harmony (or disharmony for that > matter). Exactly. > Some non-western music seems to concentrate upon melodic complexity > using single monophonic parts rather than on harmonic relationships, Again, exactly. > whereas > other kinds (like Indian music, I believe) have very complex harmonic > content. Well ... in the case of Indian, not really. Western music emphasizes harmony. Indian music emphasizes melody. The purpose there is the almost single-minded pursuit of a single note. Each note has a unique individuality. They are said to be taken from nature, and the names that they are given reflect that individuality. As against this, harmony is the attempt to harness, to systematize, and to coordinate various notes. The aims are very different. Classically there are the "saptasvara" or seven basic notes. Then there are the 22 srutis or variants of those notes. They are found approximately ever second note. Then there is "raga" which is the soul of Indian music. Each raga is unique and is associated with a mood, belief, ritual etc etc. Thus the major elements of a musical "offering" are sruti, sahitya, (or lyric), raga, (or combination of notes), laya (the rhythm) and tala (the beats by which the rhythm is divided). No harmonic preoccupations anywhere ... although things are changing a bit under Western influence. > I suppose the extent to which it would make sense to perform > existing pieces on this new-fangled piano would depend upon the extent to > which harmony is used by the piece. I agree. > Didn't Terry Riley do some microtonal piano stuff? Yes. And lots of others. > Does anyone here make microtonal stuff Yes. Me. > or know about how it relates to harmony? The relation ranges from zero to 100% depending entirely upon the intentions and proclivities of both the composer and the listener. That's to say, there's people who find the Western musical system tuneless and not in the least melodious or harmonious (now ... HERE's a highly provocative remark to entertain "the masses" -- may their numbers increase!!!!) -- just as there's Westerners who find the music of other cultures equally tuneless and lacking in melody and harmony (may their numbers steadily decrease!!). > I think Kofi might be due to drop another information payload quite > soon... Wow ... am I really THAT obvious??!! Guess so, actually!! -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 11:52:31 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <004901c2cb90$3ff141e0$ca86e23e@schweizk> References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com> <005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> <004901c2cb90$3ff141e0$ca86e23e@schweizk> Message-ID: <28364672230.20030203115231@yefrewenchi.com> On 2/3/2003 Urs Liska wrote: > There are countless efforts in "western contemporary classical music" > dealing with microtonality, > Hope this was of any interest to you It was. Thanks. -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 11:52:50 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead/ nord noodling In-Reply-To: <146.9723dea.2b6fe949@aol.com> References: <146.9723dea.2b6fe949@aol.com> Message-ID: <109364691118.20030203115250@yefrewenchi.com> On 2/3/2003 Terryfunken wrote: > Come on Brendan, Life's too short!!! ;) > I thought it was an interesting article that I wanted to share with my other > collegues on the list:) I never meant to upset anyone. I really don't think you have. -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 11:55:15 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71364836026.20030203115515@yefrewenchi.com> On 2/3/2003 Paul Vigo wrote: > I've experimented quite a bit with microtonality in harmony, That's nice!! > but despite > trying to wrap my head around the theory .... what theory??!!!! > it's usually come down to the > simplest solution: Simple is best! > Lay down your harmonies one voice at a time Aaaah. And we were doing so well!!!! _Why_ do harmonies have to be laid down? That's the bit I find it hard to grasp, sometimes. > and ride the > pitch bend in the process. Why not just take it somewhere unusual and then leave it there? > A lot of it is trial and error but after a bit > you figure out which note has to be just a touch sharp or flat and it > becomes second nature. Yup. > Somehow i've found the ear is a better judge of what > locks harmonicly than any of the more logical strategies i've been able to > come up with - Yup. > I'm not talking about just temperament either - listen > to a bit of well played fretless bass and it's anything but just tempered. True. > If anyone's got any interesting microtonal patches, love to hear them. There's some in the archives. Best if I create a category for them, I guess. And ... Jan Punter came up with a system for allowing people to create their own tunings. Here you go ... http://www.iaf.nl/Users/BlueHell/nm/tet.zip Actually, I've suddenly remembered that Wout put a discussion we had about this a while ago in the "Interesting Threads" section. Here you go ... http://nordsynth.zevv.nl/010_NordModular/014_Interesting_Threads/Folder/Tuning/Tunings02.htm Enjoy. But ... I _still_ don't get it about this "harmonizing" business. All you need to create a harmony is one drum. That's it. It can harmonize just fine Sometimes two is better, though. You can even create melodies the self same way as well. -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From b.hawk at shaw.ca Mon Feb 3 11:45:07 2003 From: b.hawk at shaw.ca (Pedro Monkeyfinger) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:54 2004 Subject: [NM] editor in classic under 10.2 stable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >Just make sure you have 10.2.3 (which has oms support) >Other than that I can't offer any other suggestions. that s what it must be. like, it works, then it doesn't.... 10.2.3 it is then thanks!! From b.hawk at shaw.ca Mon Feb 3 11:54:07 2003 From: b.hawk at shaw.ca (Pedro Monkeyfinger) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:55 2004 Subject: [NM] editor in classic under 10.2 stable? In-Reply-To: <5f.345cf629.2b6feb3e@aol.com> References: <5f.345cf629.2b6feb3e@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated 3/2/03 3:29:34 pm, theoloniusmonk@hotmail.com writes: > >>It is better to set it up in 9 rather than in >>classic. > >Hi Theo! > >What do you mean by this exactly?- better to set up oms under 9, rather than classic From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 12:03:40 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:55 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead? In-Reply-To: <1e3.e7fc06.2b6eafcb@aol.com> References: <1e3.e7fc06.2b6eafcb@aol.com> Message-ID: <193365340872.20030203120340@yefrewenchi.com> On 2/2/2003 Terryfunken wrote: > There was quite an interesting piece in yesterday's "Guardian" newspaper > which I think some people might find interesting (especially all you > pianist's out there! > http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,886739,00.html This is the gentleman concerned, I believe. http://www.bathspa.ac.uk/profiles/profile.asp?number=52 http://www.sonyclassical.com/artists/smith/bio.html Well ... surely the most striking thing about that article is the relative ignorance of developments in the field displayed by Merope Mills who wrote it. The principal thing the article ignores is that the piano was not invented out of the blue. Back in 1490 the Spanish musician Bartolomeo Pareja laid down what became one of the bedrocks of "modern Western music". He declared that the triad was "a phenomenon of nature". He even described some of the mathematical properties involved. Pareja's ideas became important because they assisted the discovery and description of the fundamentals of harmony ... something that was busy becoming the sine qua non of Western music. If you want to "understand" Western music then you have to understand the laws of harmony. Jean Philippe Rameau made another very important contribution. Along with the musicians of the Camerata Rameau clarified some "key" concepts in music and how it should be organized. He went far beyond Pareja and had a very much bigger influence on musicians, which is why he is often called "the father of modern harmony". The race was now on to develop these new insights. A very big player in the game was Panteleon Hebenstreit, who was a real virtuoso on the dulcimer. Hebenstreit had create a keyboard instrument that not only maintained a decent tuning (even the harpsichord could do that) but that at long last came extremely close to allowing composers to exploit dynamics. You really have to listen to a harpsichord in order to understand what a big deal this was. Compared to a piano, the dynamic range of a harpsichord is pitiful. It also can't sustain notes. And the ability to sustain notes makes it far easier to explore harmonic textures. Many harpsichordists tried to resolve the lack of dynamic capability in the harpsichord by having two, and sometimes three, manuals available. A musician could then extend the dynamic capabilities by playing one note on one manual and another on another. When Bartolomeo Cristofori invented his "gravicembalo col piano e forte" or "keyboard instrument that can be played soft and loud", everyone really sat up and took notice. When the resonance of the instrument was added to its dynamic range, everyone realized that the possibilities were vast. For a variety of reasons, including the contemporaneous invention of an adequate notation system, Cristofori's invention soon acquired a stranglehold on Western music ... and one that it will not soon relinquish (IMO). But as far as "unusual keyboards" is concerned, somewhere in the late 19th century a man named Vincent proposed a keyboard with six rows so that any scale at all could be played while always using the same fingering. It also, of course, made shifting keys a cinch. And sometime before that someone from Vienna (Obendrauf??) actually made a piano that made it easier for children to play large intervals. Another result was that composers and pianists could play and exploit some very unusual chords and intervals. Nobody rose to that particular challenge. Then there was John Dwight's convex keyboard which spanned 7 octaves and allowed a player to play both ends of the piano at once, increasing the range available to both players and composers. Nobody was much interested in that, either. But much more pertinently, back in the 1860s or '70s, a man called Bosanquet designed a "general purpose harmonium" which had 53 keys to the octave. Microtonal music did not exactly take the Western world by storm. A few years later Bosanquet made a different harmonium, for "research purposes", that had 72 keys to the octave ... and a little later one General Perrot Thomson made one with 80 keys to the octave. Then there was Mangeot who stunned Paris with a two-manual piano sometime in 1880. To be fair, though, Mangeot's was a little strange in that each hand was allocated its own keyboard. The keys for the left hand keyboard were reversed so that the low notes were on the right and the high notes were on the left. Pianists could therefore play scales and arpeggio using exactly the same fingering in each hand, but moving them in opposite directions. Then there was Percival who also, just before the turn of the century, invented a piano with two keyboards that were placed back-to-but vertically. The point being ... an awful lot of things have been tried in piano technology ... but they have all have come up against the same basic brick wall ... which is ... how Western music is conceptualized. More than most musics, Western music is centred not only on pitch ... but on the vertical organization of pitch. This remains a central objective in its thinking, and its kind of hard for those who are so used to it that they think it's natural to grasp that other musics on earth simply do not "think" that way. However it is expressed, attacked, reinforced or denied, harmony is always important to Western music. Perhaps a quick look at the differences between Western and Eastern Orthodox and chants can make this a bit clearer. The two are close cousins but went in very different directions. Like Western chant, "znamenny chant" was diatonic. Just like the Western variety, it recognized whole tone and half tone steps. But ... that was about it for similarities. Znamenny chant used 12 pitches (low B to a high D). But ... at every third pitch there were four "accordances" available. (The Russian term was soglassya; and an equivalent Indian term might be shruti). There were low sombre, bright and very bright. The notation system of the time allowed a composer to indicate which accordance he or she intended for that chant. However, a single chant could move freely between different accordances. The melodies of chants moved in "strict conjunct motion" (i.e. there were no jumps between pitches) excepting only that leaps of a fourth or fifth were permitted, for dramatic effect, in the final cadence. Rhythm was quarter and half notes (crotchets and minims), with the main beat being determined by the half notes (minims), with whole notes (semibreves) being used only at the ends of phrases and lines. Eighth notes (quavers) were very rare indeed. In performance, singers were permitted to take liberties and could sustain both half notes and whole notes a bit longer if they felt the occasion warranted it. So far, however, there isn't much between the two traditions. What set them apart, though, was the tonality used (or not used) by Russian znamenny chant composers. The Russians used a system of eight "glassy". These were basically derived from the eight Byzantine "echoi" (very roughly, modes). These seem originally to have been Arabic. The Russians did not group melodies by scale structure, but rather by their melodic patterns which they called "popefki" or "kokizi". Each melodic pattern had certain groups of pitches/melodies in common. Thus the first "glas" had 93 popefki, all of which were considered to have a festive tone or feel about them -- without, of course, denying the solemnity required for a chant. The eight glassy all had their defining popefki and an accompanying mood or feel. Thus the second glas was "sweet and tender", the sixth was "mournful" etc etc. It was the duty of a znamenny composer to memorize all these glassy and their 400 or so popefki memorized as well. So basically, you can establish the mood and the feeling by moving amongst popefki within a glas, and also switch soglassya. Of course, all of this had to be notated, and again the Russian tradition differed from the Western one. In the West, since harmony was developed it became very important to denote "THE" pitch that the melody was playing, and also THE pitches that the accompanying instruments were playing. In znamenny chant, of course, this was not required. It was only necessary to indicate the glas and the popefki. The Byzantines, of course never documented the symbols that they used. Presumably, they all understood them without explanation. Unfortunately, the Byzantine system remains undeciphered. The Eastern Orthodox Russians, however, devised a system of their own ... and they also took the trouble to leave behind a glossary of the symbols they used for znamenny chanting. Thus they indicated the initial accordance as well as shifts to other accordances. They also annotated the rhythm, the duration of notes, the volume, and the style of phrasing to be used. But although the "average" singer could tell from the early form of notation what accordance they should be singing in, they had no real idea, initially, which of the notes in any particular accordance they were supposed to sing. At first, the only solution was for any singer to memorize all the popefki, to recognize them immediately by sight and sound, and thus to know which pitch they should begin singing at. Unfortunately, this took years of training. It included the rather depressing business of having to learn literally hundreds of popefki off by heart. Without that there was no guarantee that any particular chant would be sung accurately. Then somewhere in the middle of the 17th century the Novgorod master Ivan Shaidurov (or Shaidur) invented a new system involving a system of auxiliary red letters. Each letter corresponded to a particular note in the church scale. Any singer could now easily sing a chant, and much more "accurately" than before. Unfortunately ... Shaidurov's system had the unforeseen consequence of making it just as easy to sing Western chants. Compared to the Eastern Orthodox glas/popefki system these used a very much simpler method. Znamenny chanting therefore gradually died out. It was preserved by "the Old Believers" who largely maintained an oral tradition, and through whom it has gradually been resurrected. But ... Eastern chanting was very different from Western chant and was based en very different principles. It had little or nothing to do with "a key centre" or issues associated with that. The "key" to the piano, and to Western music, is that it allows for the simultaneous exploration of melody and harmony -- so making it one of the primary distinguishing features of Western music. Not even Claude Debussy tried to get away from that. Yes ... Debussy did greatly question the major-minor system. But then ... so were lots of others. In any case, it is hardly to "break away" from harmony. Debussy's tradition was the major-minor system, and he addressed Wagner and Mahler's challenge by trying to break away from it. As an Impressionist, he went for "the hazy" rather than "the clear" etc etc. His answer to the musical questions of his time was to explore older, more Mediaeval sounds ... sounds which had existed before the idea of "key centre" had gripped music quite so effectively. He was also, of course, very interested in the sounds of other cultures ... although if you were a member of those other cultures those explorations did not go very far. He and the other Impressionists changed but certainly did not eliminate the basis of harmony. They instead allowed for many dramatic changes in harmony, in melody, and in rhythm. They did their best to deny the essence of the Classical and Romantic traditions which was that there should be a pull towards a firmly declared tonic note. You don't hear many V-I's from the likes of Debussy and Ravel, the two chief exponents of this style. They had more in the way of dissonances. They used a lot of whole tone scales, parallel chords, floating tones, etc. They also tried to do away with regularity in rhythm. The twentieth century (classical) music that followed them focused on further efforts to break away from tonality. The central problem was (and in man ways still remains) that of how else to organize notes harmonically once the fundamental theory of harmony is not accepted. That's to say, no matter what it sounds like, the lynchpin of twentieth century music continued to be the reaction against the Romantics. Instead of being "organized", 20th century music often tried to be "primal" and "primitive". It was a way of recapturing a "lost freedom" that existed before tonality. Towards the end of the century, composers became more "internationalist". Then there were composers like Gyorgy Ligeti who experimented with aleatoric music. The twentieth century was filled with a lot of experimentation and innovation. But many feel that the cost of this freedom for composers was a divorce from substantial numbers of the potential audience who found that they couldn't "understand" and "enjoy" it any more unless they were prepared to invest a considerable amount of time in "learning" to "get" what the composers were up to. There were irregularities in rhythm and patterns based upon 5, 7, 11, or 13 beats to a bar. Polyrhythms, polytonality and many other things were all tried. "Melodies" acquired all sorts of shapes and configurations, including wide leaps and "strange" intervals. There was no reason why a "melody" should be "singable" or "hummable". As for harmony itself, it lurched from the triads first discovered 500 years before by Pareja to complex clusters of 6, 7, 8 notes and more. This created tensions in the music that composers felt under no obligation to "resolve". It was up to the audience to forget all that major-minor tune stuff and just "get used to it". The piano itself began to be used as a percussion instrument. As for microtonalities ... the Guardian article is unbelievably naive and mistaken if it is seriously trying to suggest that Western musicians either don't know about, or have not explored, microtones. They exist worldwide and it's hardly as if they are new. Here's just one website devoted to the stuff: http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/discs.html and ... here's a site full of links to various temperaments etc. http://www.angelfire.com/music/harmonica/temperaments.html However ... IMO the article is basically right in one implication ... that if Western musicians were seriously interested in exploring microtones to any great degree, then they would already be doing so to a much greater degree than they already are. More to the point, though ... what does the Smith invention add to the possibilities for Western composers? Well ... even without it, it would be very easy to e.g. use a second manual. Pianos have been invented already that made microtones available although admittedly by using extra keys. Fretless basses and guitars are certainly available ... plus there are "traditional" instruments such as the violins and wind instruments that do make those notes available. Then there are, of course, the synthesizers that allow for this kind of playing ... if it is really what someone wants to do. The piano was invented for both its dynamics and its ability to harmonize effectively. And ... I really don't see how Geoff Smith's invention is going to overcome some five hundred years worth of preoccupation with "key centres" and harmony. If one forgets harmonizing then almost literally a "key" factor in Western music is gone. You don't have to have a special piano to do that. One only needs to become more open even to Eastern Orthodox chanting, never mind to all the other styles of music on the planet. But ... if one maintain the attitude that "harmonizing is primary" then not even the introduction of microtones achieves very much for it will still sound "Western". It is a question of the structure of the music. It takes more than a sitar that can play shrutis to make something sound "Indian". It's a question of a mindset and I personally don't see how a microtonal piano is going to facilitate the necessary shift in mindset that even Wagner saw it was necessory for Western music to adopt ... although I really would like to see it happen. But ... if it was going to happen then there'd be a lot more sign of it around IMO. Still. Probably I'm just biased!!!! -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From seayscott at yahoo.com Mon Feb 3 12:28:05 2003 From: seayscott at yahoo.com (Scott Seay) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:55 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead? In-Reply-To: <193365340872.20030203120340@yefrewenchi.com> Message-ID: <20030203202805.42279.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Kofi, I loved the response here, and even laughed at the idea of "he or she" writting chants, like those monks let women write stuff?? But my (probably horrible) understanding of the western focus on harmonies and even dynamics is that it in part was also fuled by the scientific idea that these things could be quantified i.e. C is c because of its vibration at certain cycles per second?, something you hinted at in talking about how these other traditions of chants have been lost because their particular notion was lost? Any ideas on this? ===== Man can think in the sense that he possesses the possibility to do so. This possibility alone, however, is no guarantee to us that we are capable of thinking. Martin Heidegger __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From steve.scrambled at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 3 12:38:52 2003 From: steve.scrambled at ntlworld.com (steve.scrambled) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:55 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com><005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> <183364653904.20030203115213@yefrewenchi.com> Message-ID: <002201c2cbc4$44080500$68dcff3e@u4t7d6> ----- Original Message ----- From: Friday's Child To: Nord Modular Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [NM] microtonality: piano > On 2/3/2003 steve.scrambled steve.scrambled wrote: > > > How does harmony operate in a microtonal situation, though? > Why _should_ it operate in a microtonal situation? > A very broad spectrum of the music in the world really doesn't bother > with it that much. Not saying it _should_. Just wondering if there is some form of harmony that can be said to apply in a microtonal situation, which I think is releveant when discussing the usefulness or otherwise of the piano that the article describes. > > > I guess the > > point of a piano is that it's a massively polyphonic instrument and thus > > suited to exploiting the possibilities of harmony (or disharmony for that > > matter). > Exactly. So how would you, as someone who knows more about this microtonal business than me, assess the usefulness of a microtonally tuned polyphonic instrument? > > Some non-western music seems to concentrate upon melodic complexity > > using single monophonic parts rather than on harmonic relationships, > Again, exactly. Cool! I got something right then... > > > whereas > > other kinds (like Indian music, I believe) have very complex harmonic > > content. > Well ... in the case of Indian, not really. Okay... > Western music emphasizes harmony. Indian music emphasizes melody. The > purpose there is the almost single-minded pursuit of a single note. > Each note has a unique individuality. They are said to be taken from > nature, and the names that they are given reflect that individuality. > As against this, harmony is the attempt to harness, to systematize, > and to coordinate various notes. The aims are very different. > Classically there are the "saptasvara" or seven basic notes. Then > there are the 22 srutis or variants of those notes. They are found > approximately ever second note. Then there is "raga" which is the soul > of Indian music. Each raga is unique and is associated with a mood, > belief, ritual etc etc. Thus the major elements of a musical > "offering" are sruti, sahitya, (or lyric), raga, (or combination of > notes), laya (the rhythm) and tala (the beats by which the rhythm is > divided). > > No harmonic preoccupations anywhere ... although things are changing a > bit under Western influence. Interesting stuff. Thanks. > > > > I suppose the extent to which it would make sense to perform > > existing pieces on this new-fangled piano would depend upon the extent to > > which harmony is used by the piece. > I agree. > > > Didn't Terry Riley do some microtonal piano stuff? > Yes. > And lots of others. > > > Does anyone here make microtonal stuff > Yes. Me. > > > or know about how it relates to harmony? > The relation ranges from zero to 100% depending entirely upon the intentions > and proclivities of both the composer and the listener. That's to say, > there's people who find the Western musical system tuneless and not in > the least melodious or harmonious (now ... HERE's a highly provocative > remark to entertain "the masses" -- may their numbers increase!!!!) -- > just as there's Westerners who find the music of other cultures > equally tuneless and lacking in melody and harmony (may their numbers > steadily decrease!!). Still wondering about harmony in a microtonal situation. Is the point you're making that you can pretty much combine any number of different notes you want without having to worry about whether the combination is deemed harmonious or inharmonious, since that perception depends largely upon one's cultural background? In Western music there's a recognition of at least some sort of continuum between disonnance and consonnance, so that even if one decides to repudiate harmony in favour of dissonance the idea of consonnance is still implicit within it, if you see what I mean (?!) Is there really no correlate of this in microtonal music? > > > > > I think Kofi might be due to drop another information payload quite > > soon... > Wow ... am I really THAT obvious??!! > Guess so, actually!! Not so much obvious as reliable! :-) > > With every good wish, > K(ofi) B(usia) > Best regards, Steve (Rowboffin). From lesmizz at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 3 12:59:45 2003 From: lesmizz at bellsouth.net (Les Mizzell) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:55 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <002201c2cbc4$44080500$68dcff3e@u4t7d6> Message-ID: > > How does harmony operate in a microtonal situation.... I'll use this as an excuse to plug Wendy Carlo's "Beauty in the Beast" again. This is a tour-de-force of both sound synthesis (using pretty much nothing but additive synthesis exclusively on the Crumar GDS/Synergy instruments) and of microtonal explorations. There's one piece that uses a 144 note per octave scale and sounds absolutely beautiful to my ears. Now, having "western" ears myself, I feel it's a matter of what we've grown up with and gotten "used" to hearing. For most folks, anything outside the normal 12 tone scale just sounds "weird" or "wrong". Other cultures seem to have not problem with differing scales because that's what their ears are used to. For the "Western" ears here, listen to some Gamelan music from Bali, for example. After repeated listenings, you start to get "used" to the tunings. Find some Harry Partch to listen to as well. Amazing stuff on instruments invented by the composer. There's some really good Microtonal links here: http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret/microtone.html There's a list of Microtonal Music on CD here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/discs.html The American Festival of Microtonal Music claims that they have a MIDI-compatible 55-note per octave keyboard commercially available soon, but I haven't seen a picture of it. From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 14:13:01 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:55 2004 Subject: [NM] The synthesizer is finally dead? In-Reply-To: <20030203202805.42279.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030203202805.42279.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <92373102372.20030203141301@yefrewenchi.com> On 2/3/2003 Scott Seay wrote: > I loved the response here, and even laughed at the > idea of "he or she" writting chants, like those monks > let women write stuff?? Yeah! LOL indeed!! They did have a few nuns here and thereabouts. They also used to mark their day by chants. It was the accepted custom. Why would an abbess or prioress stop her charges from singing in the privacy of their own monastery or whatever? But apart from that, I dare say their influence was pretty peripheral. Compositionally, which I guess is where a real power lay, I think you're right in that nuns would me more likely to be told what to sing and when to sing it than consulted for their creativity. Just political correctness on my part gone mad, I guess!! > But my (probably horrible) > understanding of the western focus on harmonies and > even dynamics is that it in part was also fuled by the > scientific idea that these things could be quantified Your understanding is pretty much to the point. There was an awful lot of theorizing and calculating going on to come up with "the right" ratios. The eventual best compromise was ... equal temperament. It allowed all keys to be used equally ... and pretty much destroyed the character of every one of them. It's really something to hear Bach's 48, for example, played on a well-tempered (not equal-tempered) instrument. Every key has a really different character and you can hear how Bach tried to highlight these with the various preludes and fugues. And ... that's what's really missing from the equation, I think. People used to equal temperament don't appreciate quite so readily that there's some real character already built into the scale that one is using, and that one doesn't need to "harmonize" to portray that. > i.e. C is c because of its vibration at certain cycles > per second?, That's not quite so easy as that. It took a long time before "concert pitch" as we know it was established, and even then there's at least two standards. If memory serves me correctly concert pitch is now A440 and is "THE" pitch to which all instruments should be tuned ... and in fact if pianos want to give of their sonic best when being played then they have to be designed to give of their sonic best when tuned to that. This is already a very different approach from that taken by say a traditional kora or balaphon, or even sitar maker who would simply listen to the instrument itself and tune it by its own best qualities. The tone of a piano can suffer very badly indeed when it is tuned away form its manufactured "best". That's the kind of thing I mean when I was referring to "a mindset". Back in the 17th century "A" varied between 373.7 and 402.9 Hz (I again think that's correct). So if you asked someone to "give you an A", there was a lot variation. The whole idea of an "exact A" just didn't make sense. The tuning fork was invented in the early 1700s by John Shore and he gave his A 423.5 Hz. Today's "concert A" was established in 1939 ... but even then it hasn't remained "the same". East European countries tune their pianos so they sound best at 444 Hz, sometimes even a little higher. High class concert halls tend to keep two pianos available tuned to those two frequencies. The human singing voice 'naturally' gravitates to just intonation and a well-trained singer who specializes in just singing can produce somewhere around 75 or 76 different pitches in the octave. Thus there's a whole variety of thirds and such like available, all with different characters. In fact, regarding the blues some say that it came about because when African singers and musicians started to get to grips with the piano and other instruments, the thirds and the sevenths that they were use to were located somewhere in between the flattened and plain ones, and so they played around with those intervals a great deal, thus creating a whole new world of music. Referring to the sitar, one of the first things one can determine upon beginning to listen is which one of the three most popular tuning systems the player is using. http://fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~buhrger/sitar/tuning.html Obviously, the tuning method chosen immediately has a big impact on what is to be presented. > something you hinted at in talking about > how these other traditions of chants have been lost > because their particular notion was lost? Well ... most other music has been oral, and so has not really had a notation system. Obviously, traditions like the Chinese and the Indian had to try to notate to at least some degree, but since in the end the whole purpose of the music was to explore the microtones inherent in the system in order to express emotions and the like, they didn't have much to write. Here's an interesting example of some mediaeval musical notation from a Czech Radio website: http://archiv.radio.cz/hudba/mediev.html And here's someone -- Nicholas Bailey -- who has tried to develop a notational system to go along with the music that he's making: http://music.columbia.edu/~chris/kuss.html And ... this is what it sounds like!! http://music.columbia.edu/~chris/sounds/kuss.mp3 I did have a link to some notation that Ligeti had devised for his own brand of music, but unfortunately the link doesn't work any more. If I track it down I'll send it in. -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 14:14:56 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:55 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <002201c2cbc4$44080500$68dcff3e@u4t7d6> References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com><005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> <183364653904.20030203115213@yefrewenchi.com> <002201c2cbc4$44080500$68dcff3e@u4t7d6> Message-ID: <111373217077.20030203141456@yefrewenchi.com> On 2/3/2003 steve.scrambled wrote: >> > How does harmony operate in a microtonal situation, though? >> Why _should_ it operate in a microtonal situation? >> A very broad spectrum of the music in the world really doesn't bother >> with it that much. > Not saying it _should_. Sorry ... I was just using you as a sounding board, kind of, and asking a general question about "what's musical". > Just wondering if there is some form of harmony that > can be said to apply in a microtonal situation, Aaaah. That's a question that almost begs that one has a preconception. In a certain sense, yes there is a harmony, because obviously all the notes used are "related" to each other (if the instruments are pitched). However, that is not usually what's on peoples minds. They are not trying to harmonize. A sitar player is trying to express a form and varies that form backwards and forwards, intersecting and intercutting the "expected" rhythms and notes with great panache. > which I think is releveant > when discussing the usefulness or otherwise of the piano that the article > describes. You have a point, and it's kind of also the point that I was trying to make. If one wants to think "harmonically" then as far as I can see the piano is useless because it can add but nothing to the microtonal investigations that MANY Western composers have already made. Microtonal music is a whole different mindset that is not in the least (or is very little) interested in harmonizing. Harmonizing is a very West-centric preoccupation. And if that's all someone's going to do with a microtonal piano then they aren't going to find many new dimensions in music. The whole history of 20th century music was virtually about what you do when you don't want to harmonize any more. Pretty much the answer people come up with was "convince themselves that the noise they're re making isn't just a random noise but still has some kind of structure". Microtonal music answers the same question. It has an organization that one simply has to get used to, and it is NOT concerned with answering questions about harmony. One just has to "convince themselves that the noise they're re making isn't just a random noise but still has some kind of structure". > So how would you, as someone who knows more about this microtonal business I don't really!!! If you want to meet a few people who REALLY know something about microtonality, there's a tuning list on Yahoo Groups that's chock a bloc full of people who know a great deal about it. I just use them. > than me, assess the usefulness of a microtonally tuned polyphonic > instrument? Well ... basically ... take out the polyphonic part. That's the bit that makes it "uniquely Western". And of course, once you've taken out that part, you're left wondering what to do with all your other fingers and what you're doing sitting in front of 88 keys. Pretty much ... Western music is about exploiting chords and chord clusters for which the piano is ideally suited, microtonal or not. And ... all music that explores polyphony has exactly that going for it and that's exactly what its "sameness" is whether it be hip hop or Mozart. Microtonal music as currently practised on the rest of this planet is not concerned with such issues which is why the piano rapidly becomes an expensive piece of furniture. But ... that has not stopped composers like this ... http://composers21.com/compdocs/sjukursa.htm this http://sanjeebsircar.tripod.com/biography.html or this http://www.prabhumusic.com/music/smooth.htm There are just as many people trying to go the other way, and it's a shame the Guardian writer didn't go looking for them. > Still wondering about harmony in a microtonal situation. Well ... try not to!! > Is the point you're > making that you can pretty much combine any number of different notes you > want without having to worry about whether the combination is deemed > harmonious or inharmonious, since that perception depends largely upon one's > cultural background? Well ... in a nutshell ... yes. HOWEVER ... every culture has its own method of restricting the notes that are "legally" allowed in that music, and how they should be related to each other in order to create a "piece". So it's not so much whether the combination is "harmonious or inharmonious" in a harmonic sense, but about whether it's harmonious or inharmonious in a "fitting" "that's just the right note" sense. > In Western music there's a recognition of at least some > sort of continuum between disonnance and consonnance, so that even if one > decides to repudiate harmony in favour of dissonance the idea of consonnance > is still implicit within it, if you see what I mean (?!) I think I do. > Is there really no > correlate of this in microtonal music? Yes. There is always a way to "go home", and a way to be "away from home". It's just that the form varies. One just has to get used to where "home" is. It's just a question of learning to be a native in a strange land instead of always feeling one's self to be a stranger in a strange land. -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 14:17:37 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:55 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35373377678.20030203141737@yefrewenchi.com> On 2/3/2003 Les Mizzell wrote: > Now, having "western" ears myself, I feel it's a matter of what we've grown > up with and gotten "used" to hearing. Yes. > For most folks, anything outside the > normal 12 tone scale just sounds "weird" or "wrong". Quite. > Other cultures seem to > have not problem with differing scales because that's what their ears are > used to. Select a response from above and insert here!!! > For the "Western" ears here, listen to some Gamelan music from > Bali, for example. After repeated listenings, you start to get "used" to the > tunings. And that's the point. Not just the tunings, of course, but the whole different sense of organizational principles. > Find some Harry Partch to listen to as well. Amazing stuff on instruments > invented by the composer. Absolutely. Seconded. Read Partch. Listen to Partch. NOW. > The American Festival of Microtonal Music claims that they have a > MIDI-compatible 55-note per octave keyboard commercially available soon, but > I haven't seen a picture of it. Interesting!!!! -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From valis at ucla.edu Mon Feb 3 14:54:43 2003 From: valis at ucla.edu (valis@ucla.edu) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:55 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <35373377678.20030203141737@yefrewenchi.com> References: <35373377678.20030203141737@yefrewenchi.com> Message-ID: <1044312883.3e3ef33345d32@mail.ucla.edu> Quoting Friday's Child : > On 2/3/2003 Les Mizzell wrote: > > Find some Harry Partch to listen to as well. Amazing stuff on > instruments > > invented by the composer. > Absolutely. > Seconded. > Read Partch. > Listen to Partch. > NOW. Yes! I was going to mention Partch... some cool stuff, and the instruments are really far-out. His 43-note/octave scale was based on a "tonality diamond"; like the circle of fifths on acid. He built a reed organ (among other instruments) called the "Chromelodeon" that played this scale of his back in, like, the '40s - he probably would have been down with the microtonal piano. vV From walters at doubtfulpalace.com Mon Feb 3 15:15:48 2003 From: walters at doubtfulpalace.com (Tim Walters) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:55 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <111373217077.20030203141456@yefrewenchi.com> References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com><005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> <183364653904.20030203115213@yefrewenchi.com> <002201c2cbc4$44080500$68dcff3e@u4t7d6> <111373217077.20030203141456@yefrewenchi.com> Message-ID: <32963.207.172.28.2.1044314148.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com> Friday's Child wrote: > Microtonal music is a whole different mindset that is not in the least > (or is very little) interested in harmonizing. This strikes me as a bit of an overstatement. There are plenty of contemporary JI composers who use harmonies as major compositional element: Partch, Johnston, Rich, Carlos, La Monte Young, Riley, etc. (I usually recommend the Kronos Quartet performance of Johnston's "Amazing Grace" as an introduction to microtonal music; the familiar tune helps make the tunings comprehensible, and it's a gorgeous piece of music.) > Harmonizing is a very > West-centric preoccupation. Sure, but the West has a strong microtonal tradition of its own. It's not as if Palestrina's choirs sang in equal temperament. -- SLAW * SNAKES & LADDERS Experimental popular children's music for adults http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/artists/Slaw From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 16:06:51 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:56 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <32963.207.172.28.2.1044314148.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com> References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com><005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> <183364653904.20030203115213@yefrewenchi.com> <002201c2cbc4$44080500$68dcff3e@u4t7d6> <111373217077.20030203141456@yefrewenchi.com> <32963.207.172.28.2.1044314148.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com> Message-ID: <44379932023.20030203160651@yefrewenchi.com> Hi Tim, On 2/3/2003 Tim Walters wrote: > Friday's Child wrote: >> Microtonal music is a whole different mindset that is not in the least >> (or is very little) interested in harmonizing. > This strikes me as a bit of an overstatement. True. Just getting carried away and trying to be a missionary. > There are plenty of > contemporary JI composers who use harmonies as major compositional > element: Partch, Johnston, Rich, Carlos, La Monte Young, Riley, etc. I was not referring to "Western" microtonal music. >> Harmonizing is a very >> West-centric preoccupation. > Sure, That's all I was trying to say. > but the West has a strong microtonal tradition of its own. I have not denied this. The issue is ... what happened to it > It's not > as if Palestrina's choirs sang in equal temperament. True. But ... they harmonized. Sicut Cervus is great. As also Sanctus from his Missa Brevis. Wasn't that the one that Ralph Vaughan Williams called "the most perfect piece of music ever composed"? But he, again, worked in an environment and a tradition, and was trying to make a point. In his day, the emphasis on the explanation of polyphony led to a serious concern that the words of the Holy Scriptures could no longer be heard ... and that the music was becoming "so beautiful" that no-one was any longer interested in listening, but was more concerned with enjoying the "fine music". What should the proper relationship be between music and word in the sacred compositions of the day? Of course, only the papacy could rule on this and in 1545 the judgement came down from the Council of Trent. Its primary purpose was to reform the Catholic Church against the threats posed by Protestantism. Included amongst these were some 'guidelines' about 'sacred compositions'. The words of scripture should be "clear". That should be the first priority. Palestrina responded suitably. He stuck to the development of polyphony -- the creation of music with simultaneously flowing yet independent lines that somehow "supported" each other harmonically. He wrote the 'Pope Marcellus' Mass. It was one of the earliest examples of the new more structured yet direct style. In site of the fact that Palestrina had six lines of music sounding simultaneously, the text was clearly audible. He proved that the musically complex need not detract from the audibility of the word of God. The Commission set up to investigate the suitability of polyphonic sacred music ruled in his favour. He wrote over 100 Masses, over 250 motets, several Magnificats, madrigals and the like. Even Bach rearranged one of Palestrina's masses voice and instruments in order to learn more about Palestrina's polyphonic technique. "Compose something in the style of Palestrina" is still an exercise given to students of composition today. I never once said that Palestrina composed in equal temperament. How could he have done? It hadn't yet been invented. However ... he was one of the important people who helped to confirm the Western predilection for singing and playing in harmony ... which is several lines supporting each other and being sounded simultaneously with the sounds thus produced being almost a defining character of the music. Microtonal or equal temperament, it really doesn't matter a great deal. You can spot a piece of Western music a mile off because so many of its composers and practitioners are absolutely convinced that music isn't really music unless there are at least two or three lines going along and supporting each other ... or else that somehow there's a "chord sequence" standing there in back of what is being done. All I'm trying to say is that the vast bulk of the world's music does not share this preoccupation, and also that I don't see how a microtonal piano is going to do anything any fundamentally different from what Palestrina was trying to do. All I've tried to say, rightly or wrongly, is that the scale chosen -- be it microtonal or equal temperament -- is in Western music pretty secondary to the method that is to be used to present those notes to the listener which is almost guaranteed to be chordally and harmonically based. -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From J.Punter at iaf.nl Mon Feb 3 16:07:37 2003 From: J.Punter at iaf.nl (Jan Punter) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:56 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com><005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> <183364653904.20030203115213@yefrewenchi.com> <111373217077.20030203141456@yefrewenchi.com> Message-ID: <3E3F0449.861D109E@iaf.nl> Friday's Child wrote: > And ... all music that explores polyphony has exactly that going for it and that's > > exactly what its "sameness" is whether it be hip hop or Mozart. Hmm, interesting way of looking at it ... > One just has to get used to where "home" is. It's just a question of > learning to be a native in a strange land instead of always feeling > one's self to be a stranger in a strange land. And a strange land it is indeed :-) Jan. From initiatrix at softhome.net Mon Feb 3 16:15:31 2003 From: initiatrix at softhome.net (initiatrix@softhome.net) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:56 2004 Subject: [NM] editor in classic under 10.2 stable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17310743508.20030204001531@softhome.net> Hey Tom damn cash convertors ! I'll give you a fiver for it ...... hehe jon Tac> In a message dated 3/2/03 12:27:58 am, b.hawk@shaw.ca writes: >>just got the editor running in classic under 10.2, but it s not >>stable at all. has anyone got it running well? i m using a >>tibook800 and a usb midisport 2x2 Tac> I suppose I really shouldn't be answering this (because I'm not running 10.2 Tac> yet- but I think I've got some useful info to share) Tac> for a start, what editor are you using? and I've had countless problems with Tac> the Midisport 2x2 (not even cash converters would give me a fiver for it!). Tac> I'm using an Emagic mt4 now- which is stable as a rock, but you MUST disable Tac> the OMSmididriver extention- as I found this interferes with the mt4 . Tac> Perhaps it's the same with the 2x2?? Tac> good luck! Tac> Tom :-) Tac> _______________________________________________ Tac> Nord-Modular mailing list Tac> Nord-Modular@code404.com Tac> http://code404.com/mailman/listinfo/nord-modular Tac> _______________________________________________ Tac> Patches sent to the Nord-Modular mailing list Tac> may not be redistributed without the express Tac> consent of the author/creator. From Terryfunken at aol.com Mon Feb 3 16:23:16 2003 From: Terryfunken at aol.com (Terryfunken@aol.com) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:56 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano Message-ID: <18c.15a1757d.2b7061f4@aol.com> In a message dated 4/2/03 12:12:09 am, J.Punter@iaf.nl writes: >Friday's Child wrote: > >> And ... all music that explores polyphony has exactly that going for >it and that's >> >> exactly what its "sameness" is whether it be hip hop or Mozart. > >Hmm, interesting way of looking at it ... I was going to suggest listening to Thomas Talis' "Spem in Alum"- (I don't know if I've got the title right?) - But anyway it's 5th (?) century choral music- and pure polyphony- for all those who may be interested. But I'm going to rejoin this thread in the morning as I've had a really hectic day :( Tom :-) From pvigo at swin.edu.au Mon Feb 3 16:48:49 2003 From: pvigo at swin.edu.au (Paul Vigo) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:56 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <71364836026.20030203115515@yefrewenchi.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Friday's Child on: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:55 AM Re: [NM] microtonality: piano K(ofi) B(usia) wrote..... I _still_ don't get it about this "harmonizing" business. All you need to create a harmony is one drum. That's it. It can harmonize just fine Sometimes two is better, though. You can even create melodies the self same way as well. -- Correct! Drums and skinned instruments are particularly good at this and quite flexable. What we are talking about here though is what physicists call "harmonics", most of the time talking also about the fundamental and other various frequencies with a relationship with this abstract (and highly fictional) number. Musicians from a western tradition play on this theory and it's counterpart in reality under the poetic name of "harmony", doing what physicists would describe something like: "overlaying tones of various frequencies in order to produce close to integer relationships between the harmonics of those tones." It kindof describes reality. (There's a good discussion of the way this works in "the physics and psychophysics of music" by j.g.roeder) One of the quirks of western music is that it's reliance on scales (particularly equal tempered) fight against reducing this "dissonance", whilst paradoxically, this tradition highly values the management of tonal consonance (and dissonance). Luckily the physics of real polyphonic instruments like the piano conspire to keep them more in tune than their tempered scales would imply. Western mono instrumentalists also (often unconciously) conspire against these ideal scales in their attempt to play in tune with their fellow players. The big issue for synthesists however, expecially in the digital domain, is that there is no physics at play, nor interface, to make the subtle pitch ajustments of the voices of our instruments to sidestep the pitching bugs in the western musical system. I guess the point of this rather long winded rant is I am beginning to think that microtonality is extremely important to sound design, and in the age of electronic (and mostly keyboard driven) music, far too easy to ignore. pavig@pobox.com From walters at doubtfulpalace.com Mon Feb 3 16:51:41 2003 From: walters at doubtfulpalace.com (Tim Walters) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:56 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <44379932023.20030203160651@yefrewenchi.com> References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com><005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> <183364653904.20030203115213@yefrewenchi.com> <002201c2cbc4$44080500$68dcff3e@u4t7d6> <111373217077.20030203141456@yefrewenchi.com> <32963.207.172.28.2.1044314148.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com> <44379932023.20030203160651@yefrewenchi.com> Message-ID: <17386.207.172.28.2.1044319901.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com> Friday's Child wrote: >> There are plenty of >> contemporary JI composers who use harmonies as major compositional >> element: Partch, Johnston, Rich, Carlos, La Monte Young, Riley, etc. > I was not referring to "Western" microtonal music. Well, the original question was something like "how does harmony work in microtonal music?" While it's worth pointing out that there's plenty of microtonal music that doesn't get involved with harmony, I think it's also worth pointing out that there's some that does. > All I'm trying to say is that the vast bulk of the world's music does > not share this preoccupation, and also that I don't see how a > microtonal piano is going to do anything any fundamentally different > from what Palestrina was trying to do. It's hard to know for sure without a better description of the piano, but it's conceivable that it could be used in Partch-tuned music or Lucy-tuned music--both of which are completely outside the Western harmonic system--or even in completely pitch-continuous music, where any frequency is available (and possibily aleatorically determined). Just some examples that come to mind that are neither Eurocentric nor "world." Whether this is the most likely use of the piano is, of course, another matter--if I had to guess, I would say that the main market for this device would be performers who want to switch freely between well temperament and equal temperament in between pieces on the program. On the other hand, maybe all those people have spare fortepianos already... > All I've tried to say, rightly or > wrongly, is that the scale chosen -- be it microtonal or equal > temperament -- is in Western music pretty secondary to the method that > is to be used to present those notes to the listener which is almost > guaranteed to be chordally and harmonically based. There's no doubt that most Western music is like this--that is, its original tuning has a one-to-one mapping to ET such that it's perceived as the same piece of music in either tuning--but it doesn't have to be that way. Partch, again, is an example--his pieces can't be mapped to ET in any meaningful way, yet they have strong harmonic content. Clarence Barlow's 17-ET system is another example (as opposed to 19-ET, which *can* usually be mapped to 12-ET). So there is potential to go "beyond Palestrina" with this device, whether that potential is ever realized or not. -- SLAW * SNAKES & LADDERS Experimental popular children's music for adults http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/artists/Slaw From megasycophant at yahoo.com Mon Feb 3 17:10:28 2003 From: megasycophant at yahoo.com (Brian Forsythe) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] Please share your synth programming learning experiences Message-ID: I find that I've worked and worked at most things in my life that I've become relatively good at (slamming my head against the wall) until I uncovered some pivotal piece of information resulting in an epiphany, not making me an instant master of the subject in any sense, but allowing me to confidently proceed -- a "grokking" of the subject if you will. For me, this data is usually accessed in some sort of documentation or interaction with someone who groks the subject. I think I have a personal limitation in that though I excel at many matters considered analytical, my abilities are intuitively driven. Hope that makes sense. My question is this: How have you come to awareness? Was there something you did, read, heard that flicked the switch in the recesses of your subconsciousness? What was your learning process like? I'll share one, albeit minor, piece in the unlikely event there is someone here less aware than me. Some time ago, I was reading a book called Electronica Dance Music Programming Secrets, and realized the importance between the interaction of note lengths and filter envelopes that results in slightly different note lengths dramatically effecting the quality (is timbre the right word?) of individual notes, giving them movement, etc. This illustrates my point well, because I knew all of the pieces involved -- filter envelopes, note lengths, etc -- but had just never put two and two together. Love to hear your thoughts... From soc at code404.com Mon Feb 3 17:34:15 2003 From: soc at code404.com (Justin Maxwell) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] Please share your synth programming learning experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Brian Forsythe wrote: > My question is this: How have you come to awareness? Was there something you > did, read, heard that flicked the switch in the recesses of your > subconsciousness? What was your learning process like? Yes, it's fairly simple. I stopped caring what other people were doing and focused on my own projects and expanding my own knowledge. > Electronica Dance Music Programming Secrets See, that right there is where I'd stop. I'm happy to hear you found it useful, but -- for me -- reading someone else's opinion on how to write "electronica" seems counterintuitive, especially for a genre born out of creativity and experimentation. Good topic -- looking forward to hearing more... jkm+_ p.s. mr. nord modular helped me rock club six in sf on saturday. -- + + + + + + + + + + + + + http://www.volsoc.com + + + + > compuphonic_machines_program_my_beats___________________> From bdu at fdiskc.com Mon Feb 3 16:36:54 2003 From: bdu at fdiskc.com (Brandon Daniel) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] Please share your synth programming learning experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Justin Maxwell wrote: > jkm+_ > > p.s. mr. nord modular helped me rock club six in sf on saturday. Yes, yes it did. The TIbooks and masks didn't hurt either, though! -Brandon From nordmodular at zworg.com Mon Feb 3 18:53:58 2003 From: nordmodular at zworg.com (salvador del salgo) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] Please share your synth programming learning experiences Message-ID: <16251.1044327238@zworg.com> as long as you know what the peices are, who cares how you put the puzzle together? as long as it works for you, thats what matters. i can't honestly say that i've had an epiphany on synthesis and music making, but if i were to have one i do believe it would on my own and not realized in the response of a question. let it find _you_, otherwise you'll never find _it_. From ianhattwick at attbi.com Mon Feb 3 19:32:43 2003 From: ianhattwick at attbi.com (Ian Hattwick) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] Please share your synth programming learning experiences In-Reply-To: <16251.1044327238@zworg.com> Message-ID: <52562CB0-37F1-11D7-B6EF-00039307260A@attbi.com> Two days before I left town for a month last december, a friend told me he had given up using midi to program drums, instead he just directly loads the samples into perfromer, and edits the drum parts as audio. I stayed up the next two nights frantically putting tracks together doing that, and it has made making tracks a lot more intuitive and reliable for me. Now I don't use midi at all, and I am very happy about that. Ian On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 06:53 PM, salvador del salgo wrote: > as long as you know what the peices are, who cares how you put the > puzzle together? as long as it works for you, thats what matters. i > can't honestly say that i've had an epiphany on synthesis and music > making, but if i were to have one i do believe it would on my own and > not realized in the response of a question. let it find _you_, > otherwise you'll never find _it_. > _______________________________________________ > Nord-Modular mailing list > Nord-Modular@code404.com > http://code404.com/mailman/listinfo/nord-modular > _______________________________________________ > Patches sent to the Nord-Modular mailing list > may not be redistributed without the express > consent of the author/creator. > From b.hawk at shaw.ca Mon Feb 3 17:39:40 2003 From: b.hawk at shaw.ca (Pedro Monkeyfinger) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] editor in classic under 10.2 stable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>Just make sure you have 10.2.3 (which has oms support) > > > >>Other than that I can't offer any other suggestions. > > > > >that s what it must be. like, it works, then it doesn't.... > >10.2.3 it is then > >thanks!! seems to work fine now thanks! From kadrock at pipeline.com Mon Feb 3 20:57:11 2003 From: kadrock at pipeline.com (Atom) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This all makes me think of Harry Partch, who wrote the book (well a book) on alternate tunings/intonation, microtonality, and built his own instruments. Rather than try to explain it myself, here is a link: http://www.harrypartch.com/ BTW, isn't the Nord Modular capable of alternate tunings, despite what one poster said? (Sorry if this had already been addressed.) -Atom >I've experimented quite a bit with microtonality in harmony, but despite >trying to wrap my head around the theory it's usually come down to the >simplest solution: Lay down your harmonies one voice at a time and ride the >pitch bend in the process. A lot of it is trial and error but after a bit >you figure out which note has to be just a touch sharp or flat and it >becomes second nature. Somehow i've found the ear is a better judge of what >locks harmonicly than any of the more logical strategies i've been able to >come up with - (and the nord lead 2 has a sweet pitch stick for finessing >that kind of thing.) I'm not talking about just temperament either - listen >to a bit of well played fretless bass and it's anything but just tempered. > >If anyone's got any interesting microtonal patches, love to hear them. > >Paul Vigo >Teacher, Swinburne University. [LAM300, LSM201] >email: pvigo@swin.edu.au - Mobile: 0425 704463 >personal email pavig@pobox.com and MSN .net >(preffered IM) >ICQ: 642304 - AOL: pavigmedia - Yahoo and undernet/irc: pavig > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nord-modular-bounces@code404.com >[mailto:nord-modular-bounces@code404.com]On Behalf Of steve.scrambled >Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:17 AM >To: Nord Modular >Subject: Re: [NM] microtonality: piano > > >> Harriet Smith of the classical Music magazine is among >> the doubters. "The question it immediately begs is why? You obviously >> don't need all these extra tones to play the majority of the repertoire >> that is out there. And you wouldn't really want it to play world music >> on the piano because that's not really what the piano is about." ' >> >> Isn't this the same attitude people had when the convection oven came out? >;) >> I think to say "this is not what the piano is really about" would be >denying >> countless composers (in particular, John Cage, Stephen Scott etc.) that >their >> work had any point. > >How does harmony operate in a microtonal situation, though? I guess the >point of a piano is that it's a massively polyphonic instrument and thus >suited to exploiting the possibilities of harmony (or disharmony for that >matter). Some non-western music seems to concentrate upon melodic complexity >using single monophonic parts rather than on harmonic relationships, whereas >other kinds (like Indian music, I believe) have very complex harmonic >content. I suppose the extent to which it would make sense to perform >existing pieces on this new-fangled piano would depend upon the extent to >which harmony is used by the piece. > >Didn't Terry Riley do some microtonal piano stuff? I think I have an ancient >SOS article about it somewhere. > >Does anyone here make microtonal stuff or know about how it relates to >harmony? I think Kofi might be due to drop another information payload quite >soon... > >Nice article, Tom. > >Steve (Rowboffin) -- _______________________________________________________ .MELANGE.electronic.music. http://www.melange.org .media/scoring/art/design. "Talking about art is like dancing about architecture." - David Bowie _______________________________________________________ From fogheights at earthlink.net Mon Feb 3 21:10:46 2003 From: fogheights at earthlink.net (e. mokur) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] can't load pch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I can't get the editor to accept this patch. Can anybody check this out, please? e. mokur -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2921 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.code404.com/pipermail/nord-modular/attachments/20030204/2ae3c655/attachment.obj From fogheights at earthlink.net Mon Feb 3 21:32:47 2003 From: fogheights at earthlink.net (e. mokur) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: Tuva? In-Reply-To: <183364653904.20030203115213@yefrewenchi.com> Message-ID: on 2/3/03 2:52 PM, Friday's Child at afromodulator@yefrewenchi.com wrote: > Well ... in the case of Indian, not really. Are there any Tuva voice like patch in the NM achive? Thanks e. mokur From blommoo at wanadoo.nl Mon Feb 3 22:40:33 2003 From: blommoo at wanadoo.nl (Wout Blommers) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] can't load pch? References: Message-ID: <3E3F6061.5030401@wanadoo.nl> e. mokur wrote: > Hi, I can't get the editor to accept this patch. > Can anybody check this out, please? Totally screwed up by the Net, I'm afraid. Go to http://nordsynth.zevv.nl/010_NordModular/011_Patches/Beek_Wouter_van/SickVoilin.pch Where is that site again about long URL's? Wout From blommoo at wanadoo.nl Mon Feb 3 22:48:30 2003 From: blommoo at wanadoo.nl (Wout Blommers) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] can't load pch? References: <3E3F6061.5030401@wanadoo.nl> Message-ID: <3E3F623E.3040408@wanadoo.nl> Wout Blommers wrote: > e. mokur wrote: > >> Hi, I can't get the editor to accept this patch. >> Can anybody check this out, please? > > > Totally screwed up by the Net, I'm afraid. > Go to > http://nordsynth.zevv.nl/010_NordModular/011_Patches/Beek_Wouter_van/SickVoilin.pch Strange, doesn't work either... Maybe as an attachment? Wout -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SickVoilin.pch Type: .pch Size: 2543 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.code404.com/pipermail/nord-modular/attachments/20030204/79c8bc17/SickVoilin.bat From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 23:02:41 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:57 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <18c.15a1757d.2b7061f4@aol.com> References: <18c.15a1757d.2b7061f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <63404881639.20030203230241@yefrewenchi.com> On 2/3/2003 Terryfunken wrote: > I was going to suggest listening to Thomas Talis' "Spem in Alum"- (I don't > know if I've got the title right?) - Thomas Tallis. 40-part motet. "Spem in alium". > But anyway it's 5th (?) century choral music- 16th century. Elizabethan. http://www.st-alfege.org/t-tallis.htm > and pure polyphony- for all those who may be interested. Idiots like me, actually!!!! This is the text: Spem in alium numquam habui praeter in te Deus Israel qui irasceris et propitius eris et omnia peccata hominum in tribulatione dimittis Domine Deus Creator coeli et terra respice humilitatem nostram I have never put my hope in any other but in you God of Israel who will be angry and yet become again gracious and who forgives all the sins of suffering man Lord God Creator of Heaven and Earth look upon our lowliness As you say -- it's a really great piece of work ... even in the opinion of someone like me who's grown weary of all that polyphony stuff!!! > But I'm going > to rejoin this thread in the morning as I've had a really hectic day :( Hope you had a good sleep!! -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com Mon Feb 3 23:16:26 2003 From: afromodulator at yefrewenchi.com (Friday's Child) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:58 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <17386.207.172.28.2.1044319901.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com> References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com><005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> <183364653904.20030203115213@yefrewenchi.com> <002201c2cbc4$44080500$68dcff3e@u4t7d6> <111373217077.20030203141456@yefrewenchi.com> <32963.207.172.28.2.1044314148.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com> <44379932023.20030203160651@yefrewenchi.com> <17386.207.172.28.2.1044319901.squirrel@www.doubtfulpalace.com> Message-ID: <156405707085.20030203231626@yefrewenchi.com> On 2/3/2003 Tim Walters wrote: > Friday's Child wrote: >>> There are plenty of >>> contemporary JI composers who use harmonies as major compositional >>> element: Partch, Johnston, Rich, Carlos, La Monte Young, Riley, etc. >> I was not referring to "Western" microtonal music. > Well, the original question was something like "how does harmony work in > microtonal music?" True. > While it's worth pointing out that there's plenty of > microtonal music that doesn't get involved with harmony, Yes. I was presuming, possibly wrongly, that people didn't know so much about those ... > I think it's also > worth pointing out that there's some that does. Well ... then I was clearly making the mistake of assuming that everyone knew such things existed. Harmonizing is what Western music does, after all. Sorry for making that assumption, though. But ... the kind of microtonal music that harmonizes is called "Western microtonal music". If people are going to get interested in microtonal music one thing that is going to have to change is the form of the music. E.g.. when the Impressionists "rejected" the major-minor axis they wrote many less sonatas and concertos (n.b. I did not say "non") and emphasised other forms such as preludes and "occasional" musics. Those kinds of forms did not derive their existence from a search for completion through tonality. > It's hard to know for sure without a better description of the piano, but > it's conceivable that it could be used in Partch-tuned music or Lucy-tuned > music-- Yes indeed. > both of which are completely outside the Western harmonic > system-- That I'm not so sure of. Just look at the theories that went into establishing them. And that done, they still try to harmonize. Take the Lucy. All those calculations using the value of pi. http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/lsd/chap1.html http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/index.html Partch, however, is another matter, and your point is taken. Nevertheless ... nevertheless ... he certainly doesn't SOUND like he's from any other culture -- but the Western. At least ... not from what I've heard of him!! I, personally, have not heard anything that could conceivably have been written by anyone from any other culture, although I have not heard all his works. > Whether this > is the most likely use of the piano is, of course, another matter-- Quite. And ... agreed. > if I > had to guess, I would say that the main market for this device would be > performers who want to switch freely between well temperament and equal > temperament in between pieces on the program. Unfortunately, I agree with you. That's the depressing part. > On the other hand, maybe all > those people have spare fortepianos already... LOL!! >> All I've tried to say, rightly or >> wrongly, is that the scale chosen -- be it microtonal or equal >> temperament -- is in Western music pretty secondary to the method that >> is to be used to present those notes to the listener which is almost >> guaranteed to be chordally and harmonically based. > There's no doubt that most Western music is like this--that is, its > original tuning has a one-to-one mapping to ET such that it's perceived as > the same piece of music in either tuning-- That's all I've tried to say. > but it doesn't have to be that way. Totally agreed. And ... I wish it wasn't. One of the major things I was taking issue with, from the original Guardian article, was its declaration that somehow this piano was suddenly going to present "Western music" with something it had never come across before. It has. Let's just hope that people get to like it more this time ... but somehow I don't think they will. > Partch, again, is an example--his pieces can't be mapped to ET in any > meaningful way, yet they have strong harmonic content. Errrrr ... that's kind of EXACTLY what I've tried to say. Harmonizing is what Western composers always want to do, even when you give them a new scale. WHY do they always want to do this? Why? > So there is potential to go "beyond Palestrina" with this device, Yes. Totally agreed. > whether > that potential is ever realized or not. Sadly, I don't think it will be but I wait with bated breath. OK ... as far as I can see the differences between your position and mine reduce to this ... when you hear a different tuning or a whole different set of choices to make music with, then it's immediately "different" and unlike everything else in Western music. Me ... well ... I guess I'm just more jaundiced. As soon as I hear people harmonizing or playing in a way that clearly implies "chords", then I pretty much don't care any more HOW exotic" or whatever the tuning or choice of notes might be. The composers and players are immediately children of Palestrina and his simultaneous polyphonic lines and I call it "Western". It might be microtonal but it's still harmonic and Western. That's really all I've tried to say -- to point out that there's a lot of microtonal music that's played and conceived in a TOTALLY different way. -- With every good wish, K(ofi) B(usia) From walters at doubtfulpalace.com Tue Feb 4 00:15:05 2003 From: walters at doubtfulpalace.com (Tim Walters) Date: Thu Sep 30 16:00:58 2004 Subject: [NM] microtonality: piano In-Reply-To: <156405707085.20030203231626@yefrewenchi.com> References: <1e9.d208f6.2b6f8e51@aol.com><005601c2cb86$8fb73540$2fdcff3e@u4t7d6> <183364653904.20030203115213@yefrewenchi.com> <002201c2cbc4$44080500$6